Coffee House

Ukraine reinforces the case for a wider but shallower EU

19 February 2014

With Ukip heading for possible victory in the European elections and anti-EU fervour growing across the continent, it is hard to imagine a country where people are so desperate to join the EU that they are prepared to take on water canon in order to make their point. But that country is Ukraine. The violence which has been brewing for weeks and which erupted yesterday has its source in many tensions in the country, but one issue defines the two sides: protesters who are looking westwards towards EU membership and a government which rejects this and looks eastwards towards Russia.

Maybe President Viktor Yanukovych and Nigel Farage should make a pact: if Nige were to make an address in Independence Square perhaps the protesters would slope off home, concluding that their fight for EU membership wasn’t worth it after all. But I doubt it. The affair is a stark reminder of just how differently the EU is seen across Europe: in Britain and in a growing number of western countries as an interfering presence in national life; in the east, a route to freedom and prosperity.

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The case for a wider but shallower EU has never been so great. Granting EU membership to former Soviet bloc states in Eastern Europe has made future domination by Russia unthinkable. Year by year countries from Estonia to Bulgaria, which within living memory marched to Stalin’s every word, are becoming more stuck in the values of Western Europe. That is a huge gain for our economy and security. And yet what is good about the EU is simultaneously undermined by excessive interference in national affairs by an overbearing and anti-democratic Brussels bureaucracy. If the EU was functioning well, British citizens would welcome the prospect of yet another former Soviet satellite, Ukraine, being torn away from Putin’s grasp. As it is, the thought of Ukraine joining the EU will fill many people with the dread of yet more millions being eligible for British welfare – and Westminster being able to do nothing about it.

This is a point which David Cameron and William Hague need to seize in their much-vaunted but so far somewhat unenergetic campaign to renegotiate Britain’s membership of the EU. We should cheer Ukrainians who look westwards to our democracy as a model for their future – and condemn the EU’s aloof hierarchy whose contempt for the voice of the people compromises that democracy.

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  • global city

    A wider but shallower institution we have.

    It is called the Council of Europe.

    Why not just concentrate on that instead of the bureaucratic oppression that the EU is based upon?

  • Kevin T

    “If the EU was functioning well, British citizens would welcome the
    prospect of yet another former Soviet satellite, Ukraine, being torn
    away from Putin’s grasp. As it is, the thought of Ukraine joining the EU
    will fill many people with the dread of yet more millions being
    eligible for British welfare – and Westminster being able to do nothing
    about it.”

    This illustrates the fatal flaw in the renegotiation argument. You know perfectly well freedom of movement is not going to be on the table. Nor is preventing the EU from expanding to let in more poor countries – in fact David Cameron is all for expansion. Turkey, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Albania, Macedonia and Montenegro are all in the waiting room and the EU is making it quite clear that Ukraine will be welcome too. That’s over a hundred million more people from relatively poor countries with access to Britain in not much more than a decade. Given that our country filling up with immigrants is by far most people’s number one complaint about the EU, and there is nothing you can do about that, what do you think you can fob us off with?

  • Kevin T

    Occupants of former Soviet countries set the “freedom” bar a lot lower than we do.

  • tolpuddle1

    Ukrainians have suffered so much from Russian governments, that their attitude to the West is dreamy and sentimental. Why else would sane people be enthusiasts for the EU ?

    And never having lived in the West, they miss the point that – because of globalisation and population shrinkage among Western people – the West is rapidly ceasing to be Western.

  • roger

    The Ukrainians are not united in their desire to be in the EU if that means cutting ties with Russia, but as the EU (like NATO) is predicated on being ‘against’ Russia to lesser or greater extent they can’t seem to have a bit of both.The result looks like a two state solution, Kiev and Kharkov running things.

  • Augustus

    Granting EU membership to Ukraine would be something Russia could not accept, quite rightly. Russia is vital for Ukraine’s economic wellbeing and will always have, whether Europe likes it or not, a crucial influence on its neighbour. A transitional government and early elections should prevent civil war in Ukraine. Where two parties claim to be fighting on behalf of the people only elections can bring any clarity. ‘A route to freedom and prosperity’ the EU may seem to half the Ukrainians, but Russia still hasn’t had the last word.

  • DaHitman

    Is Ross Clark trying to get a job at the BBC or Guardian. The reason the Ukraine wants to be part of the EUSSR is because they want handouts, its that simple

  • Ben

    Dear Ross

    You are making things too complicated and you are looking at the EU too favourably. the choice facing the Ukraine is simple:

    Empire (1) = Russia – Hash and brutal at times. Corrupt and self serving. Seems to likely to bestow poverty more than wealth on its satalites.

    Empire (2) = The EU – Incompetent self serving, corrupt and doomed to fail. Though not before it has caused even further misery and poverty than it has already created.

    Not a great choice to make. And with both Empires competing for control, then I suppose it’s only natural that some favour each side and a bloody struggle is taking place for mastery of the situation.

    We are in a different part of the world to the Ukraine. Russia is not our neighbour. We have a larger economy than Russia. So we don’t look at the EU as a means of escaping Russia. We need to escape the the European Empire and be a free and prosperous nation….End of story.

  • artemis in france

    Perhaps after years of “paternalistic” domination by Russia thèse countries are simply unable to contemplate a life without some sort of dominating force behind them. Or do they simply not recognize how demeaning the EU will ultimately be in granting their wish to be independent of Russia? Frying pan and fire come to mind.

  • saffrin

    The last time i had a vote on any EU issue was 1975. The Ukraine wasn’t even mentioned.

  • Bonkim

    Ukraine is poison chalice for Europe. Part of it wants Russia and the Orthodox Church, the other Catholic and EU oriented.

    Most of those in the protest movement are right-wing and want the EU to open doors for people to work. The economy is broken, and the EU will not be able to keep it afloat.

    Bad days ahead for Ukraine.

    • saffrin

      Even worse days for us. Ukrain will just shift from the USSR to an EUSSR.

  • Петрова Екатерина

    Please, healp. Any financial assistance activists on Maidan:


    WME-кошелёк- E751762665149

    Thanks, all.

  • Conway

    “in the east, a route to freedom and prosperity.” They are used to Soviet style government, so they will probably feel comfortable with the EU, which shares many of its characteristics but professes to have the trappings of democracy (while actually thwarting it at every opportunity). Prosperity? Only because they think they will be able to suck at the teat of the EU (as net recipients) and move to countries where the benefit systems are more generous. You cannot in any way blame them – it’s a win-win situation for them. If, however, you have a long history of democratic government and you are footing all the bills, it is no wonder that the EU is seen “in Britain and in a growing number of western countries as an interfering presence in national life”. You omitted to add that it is increasingly seen as an expensive experiment that has failed.

  • Smithersjones2013

    Doesn’t this article demonstrate what sick twisted individuals Europhiles are? People are dying on the streets of Kiev and they see it as a domestic political opportunity and one where they obscenely misrepresent the divisions in Ukrainian society much of which wishes to stay in Russia’s sphere of influence.

    You’d have thought after the tragedy of Syria such infantile attitudes about democracy as that displayed here would have disappeared but no in Mr Clark we see that stupidity continues unabated.

    PS So much for the EU bringing peace to Europe…….

  • swatnan

    It was going swimmingly with just 7. The Eastern Bloc should have formed their own ComEcom Union and stayed that way. Instead they started looking West. Big Mistake. Thats when the real trouble started.

  • Edmund burke326

    So the corrupt EU which grew out of the EEC is now about negating Russia’s influence. South & Central America should be so lucky. The unrest in Ukraine has nothing to do with western values, economics and has more to do with anti-semitism and the far right; killing police, chaining governors, shooting at the police, press. Common sense is enough to dictate the fear of yet another Eastern European country turning up for the gravy train. The EU has lost legitimacy.

  • rtj1211

    Has anyone thought of telling you that the ‘protestors’ are probably being supported by EU troughers keen to get their hands on Ukrainian assets at rock-bottom prices??

  • Two Bob

    ‘a huge gain for our economy and security’ And for taking our jobs and houses….

  • mrsjosephinehydehartley

    Somebody should invent a so-called “app” so these people can choose who they want to identify with, whenever they want, wherever they want. And see how things pan out..

  • Daniel Maris

    A country of 40 million stands on the threshold of civil war with incalculable consequences…and you write some pootling article grinding some axe of your own.

  • AnotherDave

    It’s not just the EU “whose contempt for the voice of the people compromises that democracy.”

    After passing a “referendum lock”, to guarantee British voters the final say on any further transfer of power from UK to EU, the government now plans to pass powers over justice and policing to the EU, without a referendum.

    “the date being pencilled in for a Commons vote is at the very end of the session on the eve of the Commons rising for the summer recess on July 22. ”

  • saffrin

    2025, the European Union’s only members being Poland and the Ukraine.

  • JonBW

    “We should cheer Ukrainians who look westwards to our democracy as a model for their future..”

    What about those – a majority in the South and East – who look Eastwards to Russia as their natural partner for cultural reasons?

    The Ukraine’s relationship with Russia pre-dates the USSR by centuries; it is analogous to Ulster’s relationship with the UK.

  • slonytattery

    If the EU was functioning well, British citizens would welcome the prospect of yet another former Soviet satellite

    No. The EU’s raison d’etre is ‘ever closer union’; the eventual formation of a country called Europe, which is slowly materialising in all but name. It doesn’t ‘do’ shallower or leaner or less bureaucratic. This is why the ‘renegotiation’ meme is so depressing. Substantive renegotiation of the the EU’s treaties towards a simple ‘trading bloc’ is not and can never be considered because it is not and has never been the eventual aim for the EU.

    • Bonkim

      Britan has very little in common with Ukraine, of no interest.

      • Trofim

        Apart from the fact that the gas we need from Russia comes through the Ukraine. What else? Lebensraum.

        • Bonkim

          If Ukraine interferes with the pipeline – Russia will step in, Ukraine’s own supply will be cut, and the EU will not be that pleased with Ukraine either. It will get hammered from all sides.

          Britain in any case has better fuel diversity than Europe, we have LNG coming from Quatar, Venezuela, etc to make up the deficit from North Sea – have no fear.

    • Comment for Reading

      I have an understading, which I have based on the Bible as to why Britain is more stable than other countries, and I believe that America with the help of its Puppet of the European Union is being used by the invisible Devil in the role of false prophet mentioned in the book of Revelation.

      This is why things are different in some other countries as has happened in Ukraine was directed by the Pope, and the Catholic Priests in Ukraine, and with the Pope’s Allies.

      The West of Ukraine is mainly Catholic and Ethnically Ukrainian, and the East of Ukraine is mainly Orthodox and Ethnically Russian.

      The Ukrainian President, Viktor Yanukovych maliciously slandered did not break any laws, or do anything against the Interest of Ukraine, or Ukrainians, but the Western Media has and will continue maliciously slander him, and the invisible Demons may torture him in the invisible realm to falsely confess to wrongdoing in order to cover up for some of the secret Devil worshiping Euro-American politicians and for the secret Devil worshipping Pope, even as many Ukrainian parliamentarians have been tortured in the invisible realm to cover up for Satan, by wrongly impeaching President Viktor Yanukovych.

      People are asking how can they fund the World, and there could be some who are saying that the Catholic Church should give All of their money to the United Nations Development Fund, and to the Eurozone so that some of the Bankers and Some Politicians do not have to be inconvenienced.

      These Bankers and European Union officials and other politicians need to know that it is Either Them or the Catholic Church, who Must be the First to give All their Money,and so that decision will be easy to make.

      Those who know the Truth of what happened in Ukraine know that a Legitimate and Democratically Elected Government did not want to sign an Unfavourable Deal with the European Union.

      That Deal which would have increased the Price of Gas, and Created Massive Unemployment, Lowered Pensions, and probably led to Ukraine Defaulting on its Foreign Debts.

      The way it was done, after the Ukrainian President did not sign up to the Satanic European Union’s Deal was with the Pope and with the Euro-American politicians asking the invisible Demons to cause Catholics to Riot rather than to wait for an Election to decide matters.

      This small group was Funded by Euro-America, who then got the Invisible Demons to Torture, the Secret Devil Worshipping Catholics of West Ukraine in the invisible realm to Riot even if it cost them their lives, because they had Sold their Souls to the Devil, and they were Too Cowardly to Repent and serve God, and the Invisible Satan the Devil, his Invisible Demons, Euro-America, the Devil Worshipping Catholic Church, and the Western Media gave them the False Title of heroes (Mark 5:1-13).

      The Pope and President Barack Obama could ask the invisible Demons to Torture the East Ukrainians so that they do not resist the Satanic Catholic Dictatorship in Ukraine.

      The East Ukrainians have a Right to set up their Own Government, because the Eastern Version of the Ukrainian Constiution belongs to them, but the Invisible Demons may torture them in the Invisible realm to go along with the Lies, and the Injustice, and the Poverty.

      Those Demonized Rioters had caused over 3 Billion Dollars of Economic and Financial Damage to Ukraine, and All Ukrainians had the Democratic Right to decide matters at Elections, and so the Government was morally obliged to Restore Order to the Country.

      Regrettably, the Only way to have done that is to kill the Demonized Catholic Ferals, because they had rifles, even as Catholic Hitler was a Demonized Feral and had an army.

      America being the True Leech that it is, has said that they will help Ukraine with an IMF Loan.

      This is why the Coup was attempted by Euro-America, because they also have Houses like Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.

      The Bible tells us that this will be repeated again and again, Until the God of the Universe Intervenes in Human Affairs and kills All of the Earth’s Demonized Ferals, and God has Instructed His Son Jesus Christ and the Heavenly Angels to ensure the Complete Destruction of All of Earth’s Wicked.

      According to the Bible, this is going to happen Very Soon, because it does Not take a Genius to Understand the Signs of the Last Days, and Euro-America is building their Empire in Eastern Europe to the state, where WW 3 would be Inevtiable unless God kills the Euro-American Devil Worshipping Politicians (Recelation 19:11-21).

      The Bible tells us that the God will destroy All Liars, and we know that the Euro-American Politicians will Always be Liars until God Destroys them, and so it is vital for those who are Redeemable from among Humankind to Repent Fast and Serve the God of the Bible, because the World is going to end soon, and that means that Jesus is coming back Very Soon to Judge All of the People of the World (Revelation 22:7).

      We have a much better Glimpse of how the Bankers and the Euro-America Politicians live in their Houses, and they have Secret Residences, and Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych has shown us at , and we can see why the Decision over Themselves or the Catholic Church will be easy for them to make.

      The Prophesies of the Bible are Always are always Fulfilled, and Many People know this to True (Proverbs 21:30).

      • Comment for Reading

        We will have to Study the Bible to know if Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych is the King of the North, because the World Power that engages in pushing is referred to as the King of the South, and it is Anglo-America (Daniel 11:40-45).

        The Fact that the Western Media have Decieved Many People as to the True Character and Intentions of the King of the South, is one thing, but God knows exactly what the Satanic King of the South is thinking, and this is why God knows that All Anglo-American Politicians Must be killed by His Son Jesus Christ in order for the World not to be Destroyed, and there Truly is NO Other way to save the Planet, because Satan cannot Repent and does not want to Repent (Revelation 19:11-21).

        God knows Satan and his Schemes, and the Invisible Devil and his Invisible Demons are the Masters of Lying and Deception, as are their Euro-American Politicians Expert Aprentices, and they will Announce the Lie of Global Peace and Security Soon, but God knows that they are Lying to Buy Time for Satan to Decieve People just before God has to Destroy the Euro-America Politicians to Save the Planet, and God will Destroy the Euro-American Politicians and other Undesirables to give the Planet a New Begginning, and the Rest of Us should also know of Satan’s Secret Schemes, and that is why we should be Studing the Bible and Obeying the God of the Bible (Johm 17:3).

        • Comment for Reading

          The Bible tells us of a little horn, that grow large, and that once belonged to the Roman Empire, and we know that to be the Roman Province of Britannia, and the little horn is described and explained in Chapters 7 and 8 of the Bible Book of Daniel, and All those Prophecies are True.

          It is said of the little horn that became Great, and which was little England that became Great Britain and British Empire, that this little horn is Highly Deceptive, and that Truth does not have a Place with its Narrative, and they do this by means of the Bribed and Corrupt Western Media.

          The British Empire gained its former Colony of America as their Partner in Crime, and so the King of the South is the Evil Anglo-American Empire under Satan’s Direction.

          It is only by studying the Bible that will enable us to better understand who the King of the North is, and sometimes we can Only know if a Prophecy of the Bible is Fulfilled after it is Fulfilled.

          It is like a weather forecast, and the Only way to see if it was Accurate or if it was Fulfilled as Predicted is to wait until the day after that day.

          However, All Bible Prophecies are Accurate, and I have heard that Hitler was the King of the North, and there have been others like Saddam Hussein, and these Never wanted a War with Anglo-America, but Anglo-America pushed for it, and got it, and told Many Lies, and after a war begins, then atrocities will be committed by both sides, but the Anglo-American Media will Lie and say that the King of the South is Always Pure, and the King of the North is Always Evil.

          It is quite clear that he who pushes or bullies Others must be one that cannot be pushed or bullied by another, and so it the World Power, which Satan uses as his False Prophet to Deceive the World, and which is Britain and America.

  • Lady Magdalene

    The EU is not going to allow the UK to negotiate a substantially different relationship with it. The British Establishment – represented by LibLabCON – doesn’t want a substantially different relationship with the EU anyway.
    It wants a few relatively minor changes, which it can big up as a significant victory. Meanwhile, we will still have the majority of our laws made by unelected, unaccountable and mostly foreign apparatchiks.
    The EU may look like democracy to the Ukrainians – as it did to the rest of the Eastern Block countries who have been allowed to join. But that’s only because they have no national history of democracy and no understanding of what real democracy is.
    If you’ve been banged up in a Victorian jail, on bread and water and no contact with the outside world, a move to an Open Prison will seem like freedom in comparison. But it isn’t freedom: it’s just a more benign prison with guards who may not look like those in the Victorian prison, but who are still guards.
    The EU is unreformable: most of its member nations are quite happy with it the way it is. And so will Ukraine be, if it ever gets to join.
    We’re not. We want our country back.

    • BarkingAtTreehuggers

      Lady M, we meet again — may I first and foremost congratulate you and your fellow fruitcakes for being so ‘determined’? What part of this article was not spoken in jest – did you not get the joke, none of you?

      The EU performed a master stroke, the $30bn spent by Russia were well worth the outcome: the window of opportunity presented itself and Ukraine took it (!)

      That is the only message of relevance here, not your small-minded little South East Engerland nonsense (Wythenshawe well done to prove the point!).

      • DaHitman

        “fruitcakes” Its things like that which means you fascist little left-wing parasites are going to a get big shock come election time.

        They should deport the lot of you to North Korea, scum

        • BarkingAtTreehuggers

          “Sochi – the window of opportunity presented itself and Ukraine took it”

          Suck it up, God-fearing patriots! Tea Party Fruitcakery will destroy Britain as we know it because NO ONE other than South East Engerland cares about your ’cause’ (!)

          • DaHitman

            Funny how the Left just call people names on Right-Wing media but then again Left-Wing media pre-moderates you because they know what a fascist bunch of jerks you are

            • BarkingAtTreehuggers

              No name calling from me – only the analysis that the last strawman of the fruitcakey UK contingent now appears to be importing Tea Party vocabulary in a last ditch attempt to save the church, the nation and the unelected/ unrepresentative centralist ineptocracy that is Westminster.

              Pickles, Paterson, Gove-bachev and Boy George telling the regions what they can and cannot do – laughable frankly! Who are you?

    • global city

      Yes. The UK isn’t Ukraine, with anything tangible or improving for our democracy.

      By the way, I’ve been blocked from the DT bogs…. for no reason I can think of.

      • Crying out loud

        Do you think the UK is a democracy?

        • global city

          More of a one than Ukraine, though significantly less than it was or could be without the EU.

  • London Calling

    Creating the EU. we created a monster.Power hungry it knows no bounds to its excessive growth, manipulating each day through rules and regulation. We feed that monster and it will turn a bite whoever turns away from its hold. Scotland should they choose independence should rejoice at the prospect of being free from the EU reins, instead too many are involved in feeding off the cash cow of funding…..:)

    • telemachus

      Can you not read
      A wider and shallower EU
      Always the UK vision
      Problem with the growth of UKIP is that they have stopped folk thinking logically

      • Makroon

        A wider and shallower EU run by the Brussels bureaucracy and a Franco-German condominium, you mean ? You sound like a strange throw-back to Douglas Hurd (shudder).

        • telemachus

          The influence of France is waning
          And ours increasing
          In any event a shallower EU will have less direction

          • morbidfascination

            Ours increasing? Have you heard the criticism coming Britain’s way from commissioners such as Reding? And the phrase “ever closer union”?

            • telemachus

              Forget the Commission
              Their influence is waning
              The zeitgeist is ours

              • Conway

                That should be Zeitgeist, Tele. All German nouns have capital letters. It’s highly unlikely the Commission’s influence will be waning; Ms Reding sees it as the executive in a United States of Europe.

            • ButcombeMan

              Yes but it is all panic reaction.

              The EU will tear itself apart.

          • global city

            National influence is waning, as the centre becomes more powerful, as is intended.

            The EU is not a project of nation states pooling resources, but a project to replace those member states as power centres.

          • Kevin T

            You live in a dream world. The EU is drawing up the treaty to bring in federalism even as we argue here.

      • tastemylogos

        In the way Stalin did to you?

      • Lady Magdalene

        The UK vision isn’t shared by our continental cousins. They’ve been trying to forcibly unite Europe for centuries and they like autocratic governance.
        They don’t like free trade, democracy and Common Law.

      • Smithersjones2013

        Well they don’t come much shallower than you and the idea of a ‘shallower’ Europe at the point when the Eurozone are heading towards political and financial union is risible. Brussels is dragging Europe into the depths of political centralism.

      • Conway

        What from the Atlantic to the Urals, you mean?

      • global city

        That the bureaucracy and their political supporters have no intention of changing.

  • @PhilKean1

    East Europeans, who’ll do ANYTHING to move away from Russia’s influence –

    – have been a curse for those of us who are trying to preserve Britain’s failing democracy.

    For when we have the Eastern Europeans who have never known real and secure democracy looking westwards at an EU which – to them – appears to be the epitome of everything they aspire to attain – then the mindless Europhiles – (see Hookes’ comment) – can point to the distorted message this phenomenon conveys and claim that, if people are wanting to join the EU when most Brits are wanting to leave, it shows that we are silly to even want to.

    • HookesLaw

      Thus speaks a man staring up his own backside.

      • Wessex Man

        clever, have you run out of sensible arguments already?

    • Kitty MLB

      As always Phil, you hit the nail on the head, well said !

    • global city

      Many people saw the German army as liberators in the first stages of WWII, this does not mean that they were atually kind and beneficent.

  • BarkingAtTreehuggers

    Who cares what the kippers or indeed Pippa thinks?
    Both are irrelevant on the European stage.

  • MirthaTidville

    If they look towards Russia, they see no dosh coming their way. They have looked at the former Soviet states that are now in the EU and see just how much has been thrown their way by the EU…ergo they are following the money.If the EU hadn`t shown itself to be the deliverer of so much largesse, the troubles in the Ukraine might not have kicked off…

    • HookesLaw

      EU regional funds supplied by non EU Norway.

      Oh – and national funding must be secured before application for European match funding can be approved.

      A prosperous westward looking Ukraine might be a good destination for our exports. But best not worry about that eh? Stick to the bile and prejudiice.

      • MirthaTidville

        your reply, as usual, flies directly in the face of the facts…plus ca change

      • tastemylogos

        Prefer we increased trade to India, Canada, Australia and Brazil to be honest.

    • Makroon

      The EU money spigot broke a long time ago.
      At least they can get plentiful cheap gas from Russia – providing they behave.

  • Dean Jackson

    As I noted back in January, these protests are manufactured by Moscow in union with the Ukrainian government to facilitate Kiev “giving in” to the protesters’ demand that the Ukraine join the European Union Association, the ultimate purpose for joining so that the Ukraine will be one of the first nations to leave the EU, after it formally joins the EU, resulting in its collapse. Europe will then form a new union with Russia, from the ‘Atlantic to Vladivostok’, which will accomplish two goals for Communist Strategists, (1) the further isolation of the United States in the world; and (2) the end of NATO…

    “Editor’s Note: The phrases ‘From the Atlantic to the Urals’, ‘From the Atlantic to Vladivostok’ and ‘From Vancouver to Vladivostok’ are interchangeable in the strategists’ lexicon. In the course of his Nobel Peace Prize Lecture, delivered in Oslo in June 1992, Gorbachev said: ‘Our [sic] vision of the European space from the Atlantic to the Urals is not that of a closed system. Since it includes the Soviet Union [sic], which reaches to the shores of the Pacific, it goes beyond nominal geographical boundaries’. Note that Gorbachev, who had been out of office for six months, referred to the Soviet Union, not Russia. In an interview on Moscow Television on 19 November 1991, Eduard Shevardnadze continued speaking as though he was still Soviet Foreign Minister: ‘I think that the idea of a Common European Home, the building of a united Europe, and I would like to underline today, of great Europe, the building of Great Europe, great, united Europe, from the Atlantic to the Urals, from the Atlantic to Vladivostok, including all our territory, most probably a European-Asian space, this project is inevitable. I am sure that we will come to building a united military space as well. To say more precisely: we will build a united Europe, whose security will be based on the principles of collective security. Precisely, collective security’. These statements by key implementers of the strategy reflect the central strategic objective of asserting ‘irreversible’ Russian/Soviet hegemony over Eurasia, thus establishing the primary geographical component of the intended World Government.” — ‘The Perestroika Deception’, by KGB defector Major Anatoliy Golitsyn….

    For those unfamiliar with this subject, the “collapse” of the USSR in 1991 was a strategic ruse under the “Long-Range Policy” (LRP). What is the LRP, you ask? The LRP is the “new” strategy all Communist nations signed onto in 1960 to defeat the West with. The last major disinformation operation under the LRP was the “collapse” of the USSR in 1991.

    The next major disinformation operation under the LRP will be the fraudulent collapse of the Chinese Communist government. When that occurs, Taiwan will be stymied from not joining the mainland. This is why China is buying up gold all over the word. It is believed that China currently has 3,000 [metric] tonnes of gold. When China has 6,000 [metric] tonnes it will have the minimum gold reserves necessary for its currency, the yuan, to replace the United States’ dollar as the world’s reserve currency, that is after the fraudulent collapse of the Chinese Communist government (the United States gold reserves is approximately 8,133.5 [metric] tonnes).

    Of course, the fraudulent “collapse” of the USSR (and East Bloc) couldn’t have been pulled off until both political parties in the United States (and political parties elsewhere in the West) were co-opted by Moscow & Allies, which explains why verification of the “collapse” was never undertaken by the West, such verification being (1) a natural administrative procedure (since the USSR wasn’t occupied by Western military forces); and (2) necessary for the survival of the West. Recall President Reagan’s favorite phrase, “Trust, but verify”. Notice that not one political party in the West demanded verification, and the media failed to alert your attention to this fact, including the “alternative” media. When determining whether the “former” USSR is complying with arms control treaties, what does the United States do to confirm compliance? Right, the United States sends into the “former” USSR investigative teams to VERIFY compliance, yet when it’s the fate of the West that’s at stake should the collapse of the USSR be a ruse, what does the United States do to confirm the collapse? Nothing!

    “Krasnaya Zvezda” is Russian (no kidding!) for “Red Star”, the official newspaper of Soviet and later Russian Ministry of Defense. The paper’s official designation is, “Central Organ of the Russian Ministry of Defense.” Note the four Soviet emblems next to the still existing Soviet era masthead, one of which pictures Lenin’s head, the man who removed the independent Russian nation from the map, supplanting it within the new nation called the USSR (the USSR being the nation that was to one day include all the nations of the Earth, incorporation taking place either by violent revolution or deception)! Those Soviet emblems and Lenin’s head can’t still be next to the masthead of the Russian Ministry of Defense’s newspaper due to their association with the Soviet Union and its ideals of world revolution; the nations of the world constituting the Soviet Union!

    For more on the “Long-Range Policy”, read KGB defector Major Anatoliy Golitsyn’s books, “New Lies for Old” and “The Perestroika Deception”, the only Soviet era defector to still be under protective custody in the West:

    Google:’new lies for old internet archive’

    Google:‘the perestroika deception pdf’

    The following is an excellent brief three-page introduction to Golitsyn and his significance in understanding Communist long-range strategy:

    Google: ‘Through the Looking Glass by Edward Jay Epstein’

    • HookesLaw

      Thank you for your long paean to loony toonery nutjobbery. This thread gets better. By later tonight it will indeed be in full nutjob flood.

      Sorry for the bad taste joke.

  • HookesLaw

    Can kippers explain why people are giving their lives so that their fellow citizens can join the EU?

    You say the EU interferes in national life. Well the EU exists and we would have to agree to its rules if we were not in it but wished to access the single market and protect our billions of inward investment. I doubt that the Ukrainians dying under police bullets want to see a highly politicised EU any more than I do, but neither do they care too much about the length of their cucumbers.

    • Ricky Strong

      “Can kippers explain why people are giving their lives so that their fellow citizens can join the EU?”

      Because the alternative is much worse?

      • HookesLaw

        Did you take your tin foil hat off for ten minutes there?

        • saffrin

          Brussels employee masquerades as Tory.

        • Ricky Strong

          Why are you so splenetic with your comments?

    • Lady Magdalene

      Because they don’t appreciate that joining the EU will be like jumping out of the frying pan and straight into the fire.

    • JonBW

      Acording to the latest polls, at least 40% of Ukranians oppose the protests; only slightly more are in favour.

      The EU is focussing on a minority (that allegedly includes the Far Right) because it suits its own political aims.

    • Makroon

      Ukraine has had a series of corrupt governments, each one voted in democratically. Germany had a cosy relationship with Timoshenko and has tried very hard to bully Yanokovich into releasing her.
      Now a bunch of street thugs want to over-turn the elected government, with the aid of EU sanctions, and install the Ukrainian-German Klitschko as cats-paw/gauleiter (just like Greece and italy).
      You don’t need to be a UKIPper to see the arrant nonsense in this, nor to think that the UK should stay well out of it.

  • Eyesee

    Funny really. All this violence to get away from a Soviet style regime of old, with all its restrictions on freedom and inability to offer anything for the aspiring. And swap it for the currently attractive EU, which is trying very hard to finish building its own dictatorship, modelled on the USSR. It is so close, but then the intended crisis of the Euro ran out of control, and nation states are starting to have trouble with their populations as they realise sovereignty has been handed over without their permission. Amazing what bureaucrats can do when unfettered; so much more than either Napoleon or Hitler managed and yet their countries are on the verge of setting up their empire. And this disastrous mess is what anyone, let alone people who have an opportunity to escape Marxism, wants? Except they don’t, but some politicians do.

    • HookesLaw

      The point is that the EU is not trying to build its own dictatorship. The blood on the Ukrainian streets ought to show you that.
      Interesting that you see EU bureaucrats achieving more than Hitler. As examples of delirium go that takes some beating. But thanks for confirming the stereotype of the thick loony kipper.

      • saffrin

        The EU has already built its own dictatorship.
        The last time this country had a vote on any EU issue was 1975. If that is not a dictatorship what is?

      • Lady Magdalene

        Ignoring the results of Referenda and making countries vote again when they get the answer “wrong” looks pretty dictatorial to me.

      • ButcombeMan

        “the thick loony kipper”

        Neither you nor Cameron learn.

        To use expressions like that of people who have a diferrent viewpoint but who in many positions you might agree with, is neither grown up, nor is it helpful.

        Such language will destroy, is destroying, the Tory party.

        • Makroon

          I agree with you, but even though I am not a Tory. I don’t believe Hookie represents anyone much, except himself.

        • DaHitman

          No left-wingers are destroying the Tories, they should have kept to Labour and the Liberals

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …spoken like a true EUSSR apparatchik, like all you socialist Camerluvvies.

      • Eyesee

        Well done for strongly supporting your point of view and attempting to make me see things differently. Oh, wait a minute you didn’t do anything so crass did you? You just attacked me personally. Big man. However, for the simple; the EU Commission comes up with laws and requires the Parliament to vote them in. In extremis they might modify them if absolutely pushed, but otherwise the Commission leave them sitting there until the MEP’s see sense. The Commission is unelected and responsible to no-one. The MEP’s are to give a veneer of democracy because the project isn’t complete yet. The fact that the end goal was always political union, with a single country called Europe, has also always been hidden. Now why do that? Oh yes! Because it wouldn’t succeed in a democracy! When the Greeks woke up to the financial woes recently, they started down the only road to dig themselves out, separation from EU control (and the Euro). So an EU government was forced on them, to stop that happening. It goes on. But, when was the last time you had any ability to affect anything in the EU? Never, that’s when. Your MEP is powerless and so is your country, one in 28. If Cameron says renegotiate and two say no, with all the others abstaining, it doesn’t happen. What influence do we have on the inside? Most EU rules are to comply with international bodies’ agreements, which we have no influence at all on, because our rep. is the EU. Norway can have a say though. They are a sovereign country, which the UK is not. And that, despite the fact that no government has the authority to hand power to a foreign power. But it still happened. As I said, Hitler couldn’t get us to do that, but then we had Churchill and of late we get Cameron and Edward Heath. Not to mention all the Marxists playing ‘let’s pretend’ in the Labour Party.

      • DaHitman

        The EU is telling sovereign countries what they can and cannot do, that’s a dictatorship you fool……………what else would you expect from a Socialist regime

    • telemachus

      If you put energy into making it better and less into bleating, then the EU would improve to the benefit of us all

      • Conway

        I admire your optimism. For 41 years we have been trying to improve the EU with signal lack of success. Eventually, it will become clear, even to the most idealistic, that the EU is incapable of reform to “improve to the benefit of us all”. It is simply not designed that way and the projekt will be implemented at all costs, regardless of the suffering it causes.

      • global city

        How do you do that when their own foundational documents, and every subsequent treaty expressly omit the democratisation of the central administration.

        Remember, the EU structures are so configured to remove any chance of the long term planning of the central bureaucracy being sidetracked by fickle or ‘populist’ (too many stupid lefties have begun aping that one, as though it has any legitimacy) interference.

        THAT is anti democratic.

    • Randy McDonald

      How is the European Union modeled in any way on the USSR?

      • Ben

        Try comparing the power structure (As in the respective governments) of both and then you will see. For example: The Soviet Union also held elections….Just like the EU. Like our MEPs their elected representatives had NO ACTUAL power. Did you know that? Half of the time they actually don’t know what they are voting for even when they do vote. However, it makes no difference if they vote/dont vote/vote yes/vote no…..Power is bestowed upon the commission and the council of ministers……Not the Elected members of parliament. In this way the EU is extraordinarily like the USSR (remember the Politburo?). Also the centralisation of all power from the nations to the centre. In their case Moscow and in ours Brussels.

        If you doubt me at all you could do worse than to research what Gorbachev and others have warned us about on this subject….(here is a quote to start you off)

        “The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”
        ― Mikhail Gorbachev

        • Randy McDonald

          In a union establishing uniform standards across its components, power has to flow to the centre else how can the standards be set? Is the United Kingdom a tyranny for having national standards?

          So, democratic governments selecting representatives at European levels along with a democratically elected European Parliament aren’t democratic? Perchance would you welcome reform in the Union to make it more democratic? Or would nothing work?

          As for the Gorbachev quote, two questions.

          1. Did Gorbachev actually say that?

          2. Was Gorbachev’s appraisal actually accurate?

          • Ben


            You asked: “How is the European Union modelled in any way on the USSR?”

            I have answered that question. The System of government is almost a mirror match. All power resided with a ruling group who are neither subject to an electorate nor an alternative option (eg, rival political party). I say again; elections there may be in the EU, however, they are but a smokescreen, a sham, a trick….Call them what you will. The fact is that there is no means for the electorate to secure change via the ballot box. The EU is not in any way democratic. The EU was specifically designed to be thus. This is why it will fail catastrophically and spectacularly. The corruption and self serving eventually become complete as is human nature when no checks and balances are in place. You and I have the police and the criminal courts to keep us in check. The EU has made itself above the people and above the law. It will fail as the USSR failed before it and for the same reasons.

            Comparisons with Westminster are not relevant. FPTP and the EU/USSR are entirely different designs. Ultimately either something is democratic or it is not. And the EU is certainly not. In fact it is Anti democratic.

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