Coffee House

Cameron needs to ensure Eurosceptic ire is directed at Labour, the Lib Dems and the Lords – not at him

31 January 2014

The EU referendum bill has just been knocked on the head in the House of Lords. The peers, led by Labour and Liberal Democrat Lords, have denied the bill the time it needs to get through. So the appointed house has defied the elected house and denied the public a say on a matter of fundamental constitutional importance.

This poses a problem for David Cameron. The bill was meant to be one of the ways that the Tories would try and halt Ukip’s advance ahead of the European Elections.

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The last thing Cameron wants is the Tory party getting in a bate about Europe and complaining that this should have been government legislation not a private member’s bill. So, the Tory leadership has been quick to try and channel Euroscpetic ire. CCHQ has denounced the Liberal Democrats and Labour as ‘enemies of democracy’, which as the Telegraph’s political editor James Kirkup points out is unusually strong language for Westminster politics. Number 10 is also making it clear that it will support another EU referendum private member’s bill in the next session and is prepared to use the parliament act if required.

The challenge for Cameron is to make the failure of the EU referendum bill about Labour and the Liberal Democrat’s hostility to giving the public a say over Britain’s EU membership. If he can do that, this shouldn’t interrupt the Tories’ recent political momentum. But if it turns into another Tory debate about Europe, then it could drown out the good economic news that Cameron so desperately needs the public to hear.

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  • nader

    Burnham. the stafford butcher. he should be in jail, not a government.

    کرکره برقی

    درب اتوماتیک

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    درب اتوماتیک

  • hadi

    Says the troll who a few short weeks ago told us Blair was not a socialist.

    کرکره برقی

    کرکره برقی
    درب پارکینگ

  • Agrippina

    At last the report dealing with EU immigrants coming over here and defrauding the system is to be published. It deals with sham marriages, fraudulent claims for benefits with false documents. Trafficking of children and vulnerable adults to claim benefits, steal and beg, too much enrichment for me.

    Perhaps, we could now see the HS2 Report that Mcloughlin won’t release either, that is another waste of our tax payers monies, roll on May elections.

  • tomthumb015

    The House of Lords as lost a great deal of the trust of the UK voters over this blocking of the UK EU referendum bill. An unelected house blocking the popular will of the people; the people will not forget, or forgive?

  • global city

    These issues are still being analysed through the eyes of pro Tory party bias… which is why the commentariat continue to be so wide of the mark.

    Who are these people who are going to flood back to the Conservatives simply because Cameron may have won a tactical game? It is not a moral drive he is pursuing, we all know that Cameron is completely Europhile. In fact, his abusing such an important issue means he will continue to drive sceptics further away from the party. Once a break is made a person will seldom return to a group they feel are treacherous to their ore, which on the EU the Tory party is and always has been.

    James, why do you make a fool of yourself by persisting with this mantra that UKIP hold all the frustrated Tory votes? survey after survey shows that this is just not so.

    The other issue is even more obvious. The private members bill was just a false initiative. Cameron was as pleased that it was killed in the Lords as the other two social democrat leaders are.

    Playing fast and lose with the EU issue is killing the Tory party… to the benefit of the UK gaining a real centre-right party in the long term… so bring it on is all I can add!

  • Richard N

    Cameron would never have backed the utterly meaningless ‘Referendum Bill’ if he had not be certaint that Labour and the Lib-Dems would kill it in the Lords.

    This tawdry piece of deception claiming to ‘guarantee a future EU referendum’ (but actually meaning nothing even if it had become law) had two objectives:

    1. To try to get eurosceptic voters to believe that Cameron would keep his ‘promise’ on a future EU referendum – and thus, that the man who desperately tried to avoid agreeing to a future EU referendum is (we are supposed to believe) suddenly anxious to have one (but not, of course, until after the election – at which time he can then renege on this ‘promise’.

    2. To enable Cameron, when the Bill was duly killed in the Lords, to blame the other two parties for killing the Bill – thus (he hopes) casting himself as the champion of an EU referendum, even though he (and his EU masters) will do anything possible to make sure that there is no EU referendum.

    I just hope people are not stupid enough to believe all these shallow machinations by the EU puppet Cameron.

  • Denis_Cooper

    By giving her Royal Assent to the European Communities Bill in 1972 the Queen agreed that EU law would have primacy within her United Kingdom, at least according to the prior assertion of the judges on the European Court of Justice based on their perception of the intentions of the parties to the 1957 Treaty of Rome.

    And then by giving her Royal Assent to the European Communities (Amendment) Bill in 1993 she agreed to become a citizen of the Union along with all her subjects in the United Kingdom, including her heir apparent Charles in whom I personally have little faith.

    So it is not difficult to envisage a situation where the monarch was reminded that as a citizen of the Union he or she had a duty of allegiance to the Union and was warned that it would be “illegal” to give Royal Assent to a Bill which contravened EU law.

    Over the past couple of weeks we have seen a very significant development – senior Tory politicians warning that two proposed amendments to a Bill before the Commons would be “illegal”, the Raab amendment because it would contravene the European Convention on Human Rights as interpreted by the Strasbourg court and the Mills amendment because it would contravene the EU treaties and laws as interpreted by the Luxembourg court, and we have seen senior Labour politicians saying that they would vote against the Raab amendment because according to the government it was “illegal”.

    Most people only see the actions of Mills and Raab as an intra-party “rebellion” against the Tory leadership, which of course it was; but if it was accepted that such amendments were “illegal” then that would make it a different kind of rebellion, a rebellion against the EU and against the Council of Europe respectively; and eventually even if there were enough MPs prepared to vote for a Bill which contravened EU law and even if they were prepared to use the Parliament Acts to bypass the Lords there would still be the question of whether the monarch would endorse their rebellion against the EU by giving Royal Assent to that Bill.

    It shows what rubbish MPs we now have on all sides of the House that most of them were prepared to take this lying down. There should have been uproar, with the Speaker making time for MPs to debate and pass a motion asserting their rights, but there wasn’t and that in itself tells us all we need to know about the supine and treacherous character of most of those we have mistakenly elected to Parliament.

  • Lady Magdalene

    Are we seriously supposed to believe that the LibCON Peers who have spent the past 30+ years betraying the British people and denying them a say in the Constitutional position of the UK vis a vis the EU support a Referendum.
    They would only do so if they (a) knew it was a fake or (b) knew it was going to be rigged to achieve the result they want.

    • Denis_Cooper

      Well, the “+” is correct because in 1972 Heath had some trouble getting the European Communities Act through the Commons but it barely touched the sides as it went through the Lords. Some people have the rose-tinted idea that the hereditary peers were staunch defenders of our constitution but the facts say otherwise.

  • Daidragon

    ‘Enemies of democracy’.’ What silly nonsense. Newsflash for the right wing…The majority of people don’t share your obsession with Yerp or your nineteenth century attitudes to sovereignty and ‘The continent’. The EU ranks at 11th or 12th in lists of voter priorities. The overtly anti EU parties got 36% and 3% at the last election. It’s not Labour or the Lib Dems job to facilitate your navel gazing and help CMD keep his nutters in line. Inside the single market, outside the euro and with a veto. It’s a very solid position that most non swivel eyed people are happy with.

    • an ex-tory voter

      Like it or not euscepticism is on the march. Even that bastion of left wing federalism the dear old Beeb is being forced to recognise that fact. Slowly, grudgingly and with enormous bad grace she is adjusting her stance to match the mood of the electorate. She must or face annihilation when the tide turns.
      The beauty of the whole process is that it is inexorable and gathers strength despite anything the Beeb or the MSM can do. It is driven by the eyes, ears and senses of the much abused British people. It is therefore undeniable, unstoppable and inevitable.
      Cameron’s destruction of the Conservative Party is a sideshow. The nation is crying enough is enough and the politicos will do as they are told. Very soon there will be no more talk of the unacceptability of voting for “illegal” amendments.

      Rome failed, Napoleon failed, Stalin failed and Hitler failed. The EUSSR will also fail because like it’s predecessors it attempting to deny and quash the essentially and necessarily tribal nature of mankind.

      If you don’t believe me go ask the SNP, or the Chechen separatists, or the Basques, or the Kurds and on and on and on. Inevitable!!!

      • Denis_Cooper

        “Very soon there will be no more talk of the unacceptability of voting for “illegal” amendments.”

        It shows what rubbish MPs we now have on all sides of the House that most of them were prepared to take that lying down. There should have been uproar, with the Speaker making time for MPs to debate and pass a motion asserting their rights, but there wasn’t and that in itself tells us all we need to know about the supine character of most of those we have mistakenly elected to Parliament.

    • Denis_Cooper

      “Inside the single market, outside the euro and with a veto.”

      Apparently you’re unaware that there are now relatively few areas where we still have a national veto over EU decisions, partly because Thatcher started the process of abolishing vetoes with the Single European Act to set up that self-same single market, but mainly because Major and Blair and Brown agreed to the abolition of further swathes of vetoes under later treaties.

  • wilfulsprite

    Perhaps it would help Cameron to realise this if the allegedly ‘right wing’ MSM actually reported it. Nothing but a back comment in the Telegraph, nothing in the DM, nothing in The Times, front page article in the Guardian Online.

  • BarkingAtTreehuggers

    Two defeats in a two days.
    How many more events does it require for the last hardline supporter of the status quo to realise that this is stagnation politics? Why will no one in this ineptocracy do what needs to be done next and call into question the PM’s authority?

    • Holly


      • BarkingAtTreehuggers

        Not enough punters appear to agree.
        This will drag on into May, no one is willing to step up and ‘do a Heseltine’ – soon, the UKIP will deliver the message, and then the Scots.

        There is no one within the Conservative Party who would challenge DC – we know there is plenty of opposition, yet no challenger. This is a deja vu, a recent deja vu. A David-Miliband-mental-blockage in fact. He had the chance, more than once, but he did not take it – the Heseltine memories prevented him for acting.

        That is quite frankly in_sane. Britain has come to a halt completely.
        It feels like Brown in his last weeks – it will end. We know it will. We can feel it.

  • Smithersjones2013

    Labour and Libdems opposed it. Go Figure! Labour and Libdems are enemies of democracy! Go figure. I suspect we will see pictures of Ed Miliband with red eyes next (and no it won’t be an unwanted Camera effect),

    Anyone who has taken the slightest bit of notice of Cameron’s EU posturing will have known this was going to happen. All it does is confirm that unless a miracle happens (or Scotland votes for independence) and the Tories somehow against all the odds win an overall majority there will be no referendum.

    This ploy would have worked if Cameron had have been consistent but as ever he has only taken the Eurosceptic course when his backbenchers have forced him to. Nobody is going to believe a Prime Minister whose been dragged kicking and screaming toward supporting such legislation purely because it was politically expedient to do so.

  • Tony_E

    When are people here going to get it – The tories don’t have the majority to ram the legislation through the commons if they re-introduce it.

    At this point, Miliband thinks he’s going to win the next election and his members will be whipped against it – he does not want to have to repeal this bill.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      He might win, but he’s still got members who are subject to a UKIP
      thrashing. Those are the votes to target, with discrete pieces of
      legislation. If Dave had any brains, he’d be doing that targeting.

      • Tony_E

        It’s one possible strategy – but I think the deal is already struck between Labour and the Lib/Dems. They will use their number to keep difficult legislation for Miliband from ever getting through the house.

        Current figures give Labour a large majority. Even if the Cons win more votes than Labour, the chances are that distribution will still give Labour a majority, and if it doesn’t then there will be a new coalition of the left.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          There may be a few LD members who are vulnerable to UKIP as well, so the above strategy might work with both them and Lab. The LD’s are about to get swamped anyway, so any “deal” with the Millipedes isn’t worth very much, as it’s every man for himself soon. Millipede will have Clegg’s scalp, and everybody knows it.

          I think the point here is that tomorrow’s politics is going to revolve around UKIP and its supporters, and Dave best get right with that right now. Even if there are a few losses along the way, that’s the future, and those losses will set the table for it.

          Personally, I think the next coalition will be with Lab and the rump of Cameroons.

          • Tony_E

            I think you over estimate UKIP. They aren’t organised enough at a ground force level to have the results that you hope for.

            I’d like to be wrong about this, but I haven’t seen anything to suggest otherwise. I don’t expect one seat to fall to UKIP in 2015.

            In fact, I’m thinking about putting a few quid on it VG – their support is more widely spread than the Tories, and we know what the electoral system does to them.

            The one thing that might come of the UKIP surge is to push the Conservatives to rally around a Eurosceptic leader after 2015 – thereby putting real pressure on the EU Core to get the next treaty in before 2020, because Labour will not want to put the treaty to the British public, or the English, Irish and Welsh if Scotland leaves the Union. I think there is a good chance of a run of single term low majority governments or hung parliaments.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              Well, UKIP isn’t about “results”, if you score that as number of seats, at least they’re not there right now. It’s about pressure, political pressure. They’re setting the Cameroons’ agenda, and have been for some time. They’ve partially set the Millipedal agenda as well… that Syria vote was the perfect example, and this latest amendment as well. UKIP can influence the process, even without a seat. Many of these green bench bandits know there’s a chance that their world might get turned upside down, and they’ll react to that threat accordingly. That’s the measure, and the most you can reasonably expect from upstarts like UKIP, in the short term.

              That’s all ignoring any effect they have in the MEP elections, which is significant, and those can influence domestic politics as well. That’s also ignoring their influence via local politics, which had them raising their representation significantly last year.

              I agree the real action comes after Dave is dismissed and the next round of leadership comes on. But absent UKIP, he’d be sticking around, no doubt, and there’d be no chance for productive action.

              It’s probably a decent bet that UKIP won’t get a seat in 2015, I’d agree. But remember, LibLabCon are as dumb as a box of rocks, and they’re the ones who put UKIP where they’re at right now, and why wouldn’t we assume they’ll put them into even higher prominence? Take a look at this recent amendment omnishambles. They’re all just as dumb as before, aren’t they?

              • ButcombeMan

                I agree 100%

                • Alexsandr

                  I think UKIP may do well in the East
                  but I assume you are from the west, BM.

                  how will UKIP do there?
                  (Apologies if you are not from the west)

                  I am midlands and I dont see them doing well here

                • ButcombeMan

                  I do not see them winning many seats, i do see them having a huge and unpredictable influence almost every where. I agree with TVG, they are creating a pressure

                  In the west country there must be LIbDem/Tory seats where UKIP can and already have, disrupted the whole process. It could go either way as a lot of LibDems are disillusioned with Clegg.

                  The one absolutely certain thing surely is that regular voters who have been pushed to change to UKIP, (from whatever party) are the most certain to vote because they feel so strongly.

                  Ex Tories, driven out by Cameron, particularly

    • Mynydd

      The reason conservatives don’t have a majority is down solely to Mr Cameron’s inability to score when faced with an open goal in 2010

      • Alexsandr

        it was those stupid leaders debates. Clegg won those. He wont again.

    • AnotherDave

      There are enough non-Conservative Party votes for an EU referendum for it pass, if the parliamentary Conservative Party also vote for it.

  • Agrippina

    It’s fine they have killed off the bill, perhaps voters will realise none of the 3party troughers are ever going to give us a referendum, so stop voting for them.

    If you want to reclaim your country, have a say in who should come here and who to throw out, vote for anyone but the trio.

    Duplicitous dave with his weekly pronouncements, pretending to do things with regard to immigrants under the guidance of lovely lynton just isn’t working, no-one believes you.

    We have listened to 50yrs of dealing with immigration, nothing has happened and nothing will, so vote for anyone but the trio. You won’t get your kids into school, no GP appts, forget social housing, old and disabled can suffer, all going to folks who have not paid in, do not integrate but believe they have rights but no obligations.

  • Wessex Man

    What I want to know is where is Hooky when we need a good laugh?

  • the viceroy’s gin

    “Cameron needs to ensure Eurosceptic ire is directed at Labour, the Lib Dems and the Lords – not at him”


    Well, at this point, the only way for Dave to accomplish that is to resign and move to Fiji. Though he’d probably still have to change his name. But yeah, that might give him an outside shot at avoiding blame for all this.

    I’d jump on the oddsmakers’ early line though, as it’s bound to start dropping like a stone.

    • Holly

      Like I said earlier…As far as I am concerned Cameron’s ditsy dithering, makes him 100% to blame.
      Telling us we will get a referendum in 2017 should have been okay, IF the backbenchers felt the same, and pulled their necks in….But…
      They are probably just hearing the mutterings growing ever louder, about immigration, and how Europe stamps on our ability to stop it, or even have a say on who comes here.
      Cameron probably did not have a clue what the real mood of the public was either, because he too had never really heard it. It was silenced by Labour and the MSM. For years, and years.
      Now, and many of us thought it odd at the time, the BBC documentary telling us immigration is ‘good for us financially’, has got us ALL talking, and our backs up. We do not like where our political leaders have taken us.
      Now we can speak, without all the verbal…and it is the politicians getting all the verbal from the public and finding themselves in deep bother.

      telemachus & his fellow bulls**ers needn’t think their useless Leader is home & dry either, because Miliband and his ilk are the reason we were all kept silent, while they let god knows who into the UK, let them spout all kinds of evil against us, and are MORE to blame for the situation we are in now….Labour will not be rewarded no matter what rubbish he spouts in Miliband/Balls defence…

  • colliemum

    Remind me – how long has Cameron been in office?
    He did have ample time for such a Bill, did he not.

    He, and the Westminster political hacks, just do not seem to understand that we voters know full well that this was yet another show for Cameron. It’s sad that, for them, it needs M. Hollande in a press conference to point out that Cameron won’t get what he wants from Brussels.
    We knew that already. This theatre in the Lords is just that: theatre.
    BAU for the europhiles …

    • Holly

      Those in the Westminster bubble also never quite understood how the public really felt, because we were quashed into silence, or were met with a barrage of being racists, little Englanders, or xenophobes if we aired our genuine concerns.
      Now we have been so graciously allowed to speak up, without all the verbal, they are falling over themselves to find a solution, without upsetting anyone.
      Yet by acting so moronic, they have succeeded in failing to sort anything.
      I reckon, if Cameron continues down the,’wait until 2017 cr@p’, the public should just about be at boiling point come the General Election…..
      The gobshites have already forgotten what the MP’s expenses did to their vote share, well this is even BIGGER!

      I reckon by 2015 we will be quite prepared to give the Westminster lot a right good poke in the eye…..
      I have had a belly full of the lot of them.

      • Tim Reed

        “I have had a belly full of the lot of them.”

        Ditto! With bells on! Well said.

    • AnotherDave

      There was an EU referendum vote in 2011. Mr Cameron voted against.

  • In2minds

    Cameron, the most pro-eu eurosceptic PM since records began!

  • ButcombeMan

    “If he can do that, this shouldn’t interrupt the Tories’ recent political momentum”.

    He cannot, the public (and more importantly and rather stupidly, those he has to negotiate with) know full well, that Cameron wants to stay in Europe, come what may.

    The public know he only began this nonsense because of the pressure on his neck from UKIP and some of his back bench (and, silently, probably some of his front bench).

    The foot on Cameron’s neck is not going away, the EU election will show that.

    All of this is Cameron’s personal fault. He is just not believed and 2017 is too distant.

    There is nothing Cameron can do now.

    Article 50 is the way, but he does not have the leadership or bottle for that. That is why he never mentions it.

    • Alexsandr

      come on. we all knew the 2017 promise was all a PR stunt from the beginning.
      But you are wrong about Cameron not having the bottle to invoke article 50. It’s simpler than that. he simply doesn’t want to.

      • ButcombeMan

        Yes and he is too lazy.

        Cameron is one of life’s gliders.

        Curious thing is that if he failed with his re negotiation and then led and ran with Article 50, he would go down as a great leader, not just of Britain.

        The EU needs a crisis to take a long hard look at itself

  • Denis_Cooper

    I don’t think the Tories should fret too much about this Bill being killed off in the Lords, because they’ve already milked it for quite a lot of favourable publicity and it wouldn’t have added that much it had actually been passed. Personally I thought that it was unlikely even to get through the Commons, and it seemed even more unlikely that it would get through the Lords. Labour and the LibDems have been quite clever in that while they criticised the Bill in the Commons they didn’t actually vote against it and block it, instead they’ve arranged for it to be killed off more quietly in the Lords. As for Cameron’s talk of a repeat private members’ Bill in the summer and the possible use of the Parliament Acts, well, in the first place that would largely depend upon a willing Tory MP having the good fortune to come high enough in the ballot to justify the new Bill being given a similar level of parliamentary time as that given to this Bill, and in the second place Labour and the LibDems might not allow the repeat Bill to pass in the Commons, which would mean that the Parliament Acts were not applicable.

    • ButcombeMan

      You are deranged if you think that was favorable publicity.

      Cameron did and said what he did and said, with his arm up his back (dissenting Tories) and a UKIP boot on his neck. The intelligent public knows that. The unintelligent public, if it thinks about it, knows that.

      The pressure from both points will get worse and because Cameron does not understand and is a bear of very little brain, he will founder and be a one term PM with an appalling record of mismanagement, of the right of politics.

      It is absolutely willful and very troubling to see.

      • Denis_Cooper

        Ah, but most of the public, intelligent and unintelligent, won’t think about it with the intensity that you and I do. Most of them want some kind of EU referendum, although it is not high on their list of wants, and in their peripheral vision they have seen Cameron making a brave attempt to pass a law to make sure they will have a referendum, and now they see in passing that Labour and the Liberal Democrats have blocked that law and they may see it scrolling along the bottom of their TV screen that Cameron is “deeply disappointed”. So of course that is favourable publicity for the Tories, and that effect is not neutralised just because a small minority who bother to follow these matters more closely take a more critical view. My point is that as a PR exercise, which is what this has always been, it makes relatively little difference whether the Bill is actually passed or not.

        • ButcombeMan

          It is often a mistake to underestimate the basic common sense of the population.

          Cameron is just not trusted. He caused that.

          • Denis_Cooper

            It is always a mistake to underestimate how busy most of the population are just living their lives, and assume that many of them have the spare time and energy or indeed the interest to keep up with the details of current affairs. An impression has been created, and on balance that is an impression which is favourable for the Tories. Not that I think that it will make much difference to voting intentions, maybe a percentage point to the Tories vis-à-vis Labour.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              Yes, but for the Cameroons, the existential threat is from UKIP. That’s who will be putting them down, and that’s who is bolstered by any waffling and missteps, like this. The Millipedes are just along for the ride.

              • Denis_Cooper

                UKIP is the existential threat for all three of the old parties.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  In the long term, yes, but that’s the point. You can’t conflate popular understanding of these affairs with electoral outcomes. The 2 are discrete. UKIP is an existential threat, no matter that popular support and understanding are not there yet. This amendment and its fallout add to that existential threat, even if it doesn’t do anything significant among the populace. Those who are animated by these issues notice, and their numbers grow, adding to the existential threat.

                • Denis_Cooper

                  Unfortunately to a large extent those who are animated by these issues talk about them among themselves and only a certain amount gradually spreads out to the wider population whose lives tend to be dominated by more everyday concerns. That is one reason why UKIP has made such slow progress over the past two decades.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  You’re putting the cart before the horse. UKIP is a populist movement. They’re effect, not cause. When we say “those who are animated by these issues”, we’re speaking of those who are alive to the populist currents UKIP is riding on. UKIP’s “progress” is up to those currents. Absent populist currents, UKIP is becalmed and going nowhere. It’s not “slow” progress. It’s just progress, of the populist issues, at whatever rate results out in the lands.

                  I’d agree that everyday concerns dominate for many, and that the populist causes aren’t going to draw a supermajority, but they are still an existential threat to electoral incumbents, even at current numbers. And that threat grows, whenever the establishment stumbles on issues the populists are concerned with.

            • ButcombeMan

              “An impression has been created, and on balance that is an impression which is favourable for the Tories”.

              Just your opinion. I have a different view.

              I think the public are sceptical about Cameron, his motives, what he stands for, if he really believes in anything at all. It extends to, is he a Tory at all?

              They are actually now sceptical about most politicians, bar the odd plain speakers, like Pickles and Farage.

              The scepticism far out weighs any minor credit from this failure

              The Cameron doubters are sadly for Cameron, those most likely to turn out and vote.

              • Denis_Cooper

                Your different view is just your opinion as well, and in my view an incorrect opinion, although I wouldn’t go so far as saying that you are deranged …

  • Holly

    I think the biggest challenge for Cameron is, does he have the bottle to put his re-negotiation package on the EU table, (he knows full well what the public want) give them the date of our referendum, BEFORE the next election, to get back to him?
    How hard can that REALLY be?

    • Mynydd

      Mr Cameron doesn’t have the bottle for far more topics than the negotiation package. Of course it started when he didn’t form a minority government, thereby putting the other parties behind the eight ball. After all minority governments have worked in Scotland and Wales

    • Alexsandr

      he doesn’t WANT to.

  • Denis_Cooper

    Labour and the LibDems are certainly “enemies of democracy”, or at least they are enemies of the democracy that really matters, our national democracy centred upon our sovereign national Parliament; but what about those leading the Tory party who try to tell our elected representatives in that Parliament that they should not pass a certain law because it would be “illegal”?

    • Kitty MLB

      Labour and The Lib Dems are most certainly enemies of democracy.
      How on earth did Cameron think going into coalition
      with such a selfish, EU obsessed muddle headed and treasonous
      party such as the Lib Dems was ever in the National Interest.
      Some such as myself believe Cameron is a Lib Dem at heart,
      either that or he is a deluded naïve fool living in La La Land
      if the latter is true – God help the chap!

      • the viceroy’s gin

        No, you’ve got it. He’s a socialist, just like the LD’s .

        • Kitty MLB

          Well he would not have wasted a lot of time and avoided a lot of damage to the Conservative Party if he were more honest about where his loyalties really are-
          he would have made an excellent Lib Dem leader-
          I have always said that.

      • Wessex Man

        Go girl go!

    • Colonel Mustard

      One does have to wonder about the party name ‘Liberal’ and ‘Democrats’ and the Trade Descriptions Act.

    • Richard N

      The Tories are just as much ‘enemies of democracy’ as the other two EU puppet parties. The only difference is that the other two don’t have to pretend to be eurosceptic.

  • Kitty MLB

    Mr Cameron if you are a genuine Conservative ( I am trying to be very understanding) and know what danger
    Labour are, and believe they are a danger, and if you know the Lib Dems
    are stopping you from doing your duty towards the country you serve
    as first minister to the crown.
    Then you have only one option, latter on this year the coalition will need to divorce.
    I have absolutely no idea how you can fight a election attached to a bunch
    of incompetent lefties ( I am struggling actually)
    If your own backbenchers and grass roots see you as the enemy and they
    need to be told the enemy is elsewhere then you, dear charming Mr Cameron
    have a huge battle ahead of you.

  • WatTylersGhost

    Did you hear Cameron’s duplicitious b*llocks about EU re-negotiation during the Hollande press conference? Forsyth, the country knows when it is being lied to, why don’t you?

    • global city

      They also passed a bill to finance and promote and EU programme to promote the benefits of ever closer union!

      The EU is written into the Tory DNA.

  • Kitty MLB

    Honestly, No offence but what codswallop!
    Cameron our defenceless innocent Prime Minister constantly needs the help
    of Labour and The Lib Dems to get policies through and he hides behind their
    shields like a coward.
    Is someone honestly saying The Lib Dems and Labour are stopping Cameron
    from standing up to the EU.
    How foolish are the electorate, if we heard of a few battles, if he stood up to them
    and fought for the electorate , even if he lost ( and he probably would ) then
    some might have a little respect, because there is honour in losing when its for
    the common good.
    Humble apologies but saying leave little Cammie alone, its not his fault,
    and he has no control just is not going to wash.

    • Holly

      The electorate are not foolish, and Cameron will get the blame,(from me at least) for not sorting this a lot sooner.
      Or at least be decisive, and hold the referendum on, or before the next election, and put the other parties/backbenchers to bed where Europe is concerned.

    • telemachus

      I guess that is all code for this is very good news
      Like immigration yesterday it emphasises the divisions in the Tory Party
      A party divided is not electable
      This week has given us the best news since 1997

      • Wessex Man

        much like the Union controlled Labour mob then.

      • Kitty MLB

        Little Telemuchus, can you say Labour are not divided,
        they may be dining on the irrelevance of opposition at the moment.
        Yet can you imagine, businesses not backing labour and leaving, theUK, The country in darkness because of Milipede’s energy plans,
        the Union bosses gripping harder, the Blairites having their say.
        and lest we forget Mr Balls- you yourself have said Leftie
        warrior Milipede’s days are numbered.

        • telemachus

          Glad you see the bright future with Ed Balls
          Balls Yvette and Burnham will take us forward into the 20’s
          Britain will believe in itself again

          • deddy

            Not sure who you are, but you don’t have write a bunch of drivel

            • telemachus

              I guess you are not a third generation Machiavellian socialist then

              • Colonel Mustard

                Not much to be proud of there. You are about as Machiavellian as a piece of four by two.

                • telemachus

                  Bernard Shaw would not agree


                  The dread of Socialism by nervous people who do not understand it, on the ground that there would be too much law under it, and that every act of our lives would be regulated by the police, is more plausible than the terrors of the ignorant people Who think it would mean the end of all law, because under Capitalism we have been forced to impose restrictions that in a socialized nation would have no sense, in order to save the proletariat from extermination, or at least from extremities that would have provoked it to rebellion. Here is a little example. A friend of mine Who employed some girls in an artistic business in which there was not competition enough to compel him to do his worst in the way of sweating them, took a nice old riverside house, and decorated it very prettily with Morris wall-papers, furnishing it in such a way that the girls could have their tea comfortably in their workrooms, which he made as homelike as possible. All went well until one day a gentleman walked in and announced himself to my friend as the factory inspector. He looked round him, evidently much puzzled, and asked where the women worked.’Here,’ replied my friend, with justifiable pride, confident that the inspector had never seen anything so creditable in the way of a factory before. But what the inspector said was ‘Where is the copy of the factory regulations which you are obliged by law to post up on your walls in full view of your employees?’ Surely you dent expect me to stick up a beastly ugly thing like that in a room furnished like a drawingroom,’ said my friend.’Why, that paper on the wall is a Morris paper: I cant disfigure it by pasting up a big placard on it.’ ‘You are liable to severe penalties’ replied the inspector ‘for having not only omitted to post the regulations, but for putting paper on your walls instead of having them limewashed at the intervals prescribed by law.’ ‘But hang it all!’ my friend remonstrated, ‘I want to make the place homely and beautiful. You forget that the girls are not always working. They take their tea here.’ ‘For allowing your employees to take their meals in the room where they work you have incurred an additional penalty’ said the inspector. ‘It is a gross breach of the Factory Acts.’ And he walked out, leaving my friend an abashed criminal caught redhanded.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  For someone who urges us to “march forward” you are remarkably stuck in the early years of the 20th century. You appear to have conveniently overlooked the prodigious output of bad law and regulation under New Labour, an avowed socialist regime full of Fabians like GBS.




                  Sadly the number of statutory instruments, which do not require full debate in Parliament has actually increased under this Coalition government which promised to “introduce a new mechanism to prevent the proliferation of unnecessary new criminal offences”.

                  And of course the subordination of the UK government to the EU tends to increase the extent of legislation being churned out. We have simply reached a stage where there are far too many politicians and bureaucrats doing far too much to interfere in our lives and it is a self-perpetuating cycle of lucrative ‘jobs’ and ever extending remits.

                • telemachus

                  Did it ever occur to you that the laws and rules and regulations are to protect the weak from the bullying actions of those operating the economics levers
                  You sir are Mebbe not stuck as far back as Shaw but certainly the time of the Krays

                • Colonel Mustard

                  “Did it ever occur to you that the laws and rules and regulations are to protect the weak from the bullying actions of those operating the economics levers”

                  That single sentence shows just how ignorant you are of the rule of law and its purpose but also how a socialist sees law as a means to coerce his political ideology. And it demonstrates your abject failure to comprehend the links I provided. You are the very model of obtuse, arrogant, pig-headed, blinkered bigotry. A mockery of the values you supposedly represent and boast about interminably.

                  Wherever I might be “stuck” I thank God I am not you or like you.

                  PS I don’t need a silly little asterisk either.

                • Alexsandr

                  as opposed to the bullying actions of stupid politicians.

                • global city

                  written a century ago and didn’t make much real sense then. Are you saying that 100 years of ‘social progress’ various Labour governments and a tory party that subscribed to the post war tripartite consensus made no differences in your measure?

                  How stupid?

                • Pier66

                  Great post as ever!

          • Colonel Mustard

            Into the 20’s alright. But it will be back to the 1920’s Soviet Union so that Red can commune with his grandfather the Bolshevik.

          • Alexsandr

            Burnham. the stafford butcher. he should be in jail, not a government.

        • Mynydd

          Please could you tell me, (I am unable to find the figures) how many businesses left the country when Mr Cameron/Osborne imposed a personal (not company) 50% tax rate for three years on those who earned over £150,000. Don’t forget under UK company law, officials of a public company must manage the company in the best interests of the shareholder, who after all own the company. So if they move a business overseas to lower their personal tax bill they are breaking the law.
          When the Labour party lost power at the 2010 general election all their plans, including energy, ended, according to the principle, a government cannot bind a future government. Consequently the present government during its term in office can ether accept the previous government plans or change them. With respect to energy, no only did Mr Cameron’s government accept the Labours plans, but increased the cost to the consumer by 45%

      • Colonel Mustard

        Says the troll who a few short weeks ago told us Blair was not a socialist.

      • global city

        The bill being successful would not have made the slightest difference to the GE result in 2015.

        Even a stupidly tribal idiot like you should be able to work that one out!

    • Hello

      How exactly can losing ever be for the common good? It is, by definition, the absence of effect. To quote Burke, it is an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.

  • saffrin

    Dave, you haven’t listened to us so why should we listen to you when we already know you are lying?
    Scared stiff in the realisation that UKIP is no protest vote or party, your efforts to fool the previously fooled are no longer working.
    If Labour win the 2015 General Election Dave, don’t blame the Kippers, blame those cloth ears you have.

    • WatTylersGhost

      Dave pretends he want a referendum so he gives the job of providing this for the country to a wet-behind-the-ears kid called Wharton. If he was sincere, he would face down the Lib Dems and make it a government bill.

      A coward when talking about immigration and a coward when facing the EU.

  • Tony Quintus

    The fact that Labour and the Lib Dems have killed this bill less than 4 months from the EU election signals that they both know they are coming in behind both UKIP and the Tories regardless of what they do.

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