Coffee House

Mass immigration or the welfare state? Because we may not be able to have both

2 August 2013

Formulating policy on the back of what you believe human beings ought to be like rather than what they tend to be like can have serious consequences. Mass immigration is a case in point.

I have tended to accept the proposition that immigration (the more the merrier) is an inherent good on the grounds that the economic case for it is strong. After all, migrants tend to put more into the pot than they take out and a rapidly ageing population means we require a young and dynamic workforce to pay for pensions further down the road. It is the economic case that explains why, as well as the bleeding heart left, the CBI and the Economist are enthralled at the prospect of greater mass migration to the UK.

Economics should not be determinative of policy, however. The paradox of the liberal love affair with immigration is that the progressive’s disdain for borders and the fetishisation of dry economic data risks undermining one of the very aspects of society he professes to cherish: the welfare state. For there is increasing evidence to suggest that declining support for social security among people in Britain may not simply be down to ‘Thatcherism’, but also to unwillingness on the part of the British people to see their hard earned money spent on people from overseas.

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As anyone who has observed the media’s varying coverage of natural disasters will know, as humans we empathise more with people who are superficially like us than we do with people whose lifestyles we struggle to understand. Unsurprisingly, a similar rule seems to apply to those we wish to spend money on at home.

A study last year by the university of Manchester found that white British respondents were consistently less willing to provide welfare assistance when the recipient was non-white or foreign born. A 2007 study by Robert Putnam, an American liberal, also found that greater diversity across local areas of Canada, the United States, Australia, Sweden and Britain was associated with lower social trust and lower investment in public goods.

As David Goodhart has written:

‘All people are equal but they are not all equal to us. Most people in Britain today accept the idea of human equality, but remain moral particularists and moderate nationalists.’

Recognition of the fact is not necessarily to endorse it. It is, however, to accept that there may be a social democratic cost attached to mass immigration that cannot simply be wished away by utopian promulgations that reek of the seminar.

As 19thcentury French philosopher Pierre-Joseph Proudhon put it: “If the entire world is my brother, then I have no brother.”

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Show comments
  • Drakken

    Import the 3rd world, you become the 3rd world, it is that bloody simple, but the leftist love the fact that they can rub our noses in multicultural diversity garbage until we drown in it. The only thing the leftist didn’t count on was the Balkanization on steroids will be visiting their doorsteps as well. For their treachery the left will see that the lamp posts and rope will get lots of use.

  • Oliver

    A different take on Multiculturalism. Can you imagine the BBC airing views like this?

    • Tim Reed

      Thomas Sowell – always worth a listen – gravitas conveyed with such calm authority. If only there were more like him.

  • Oliver

    A recent study (carried out at the New York University by a psychologist called Liz Phelps using MRI scans) on how the human brain reacts to images of different racial groups found that in a very real sense every single one of us is a racist.

    That includes bleeding heart liberals, Muslims and black people.

    Of course it is only one study so not conclusive but it passed muster in some of the best peer reviewed scientific journals so is a powerful piece evidence based research, not quackery or politically biased propaganda.

    It found that we all are much more likely to view ‘the other’ as untrustworthy than we were to view someone who looked similar to us with the same suspicion and we were much more likely to feel sympathy based on these superficial racial traits to.

    Even when we are motivated to be non-prejudiced we tend to show unintentional racial bias.

    With that in mind the goal of eradicating racism seems rather naive and the idea of seeking out and punishing people for unintentional racial bias seems to be a cruel and immoral process.

    Even if immigration was ended tomorrow we would still be living in a multiracial society so with this in mind how do we deal with the issue of race.

    It seems to me the only way to deal with racism and minimise it’s effects is to criminalise prejudicial and discriminatory decisions based on race.

    In the UK we have already done this but we are told it is not enough.

    I would be interested to hear from anyone on the left what more our society could do to deal with something which seems to be hardwired into all of us.

  • DownwithHS2

    I have no problem with paying welfare to anyone of any skin colour or place of birth, provided 2 things are met:

    Firstly, that their need is genuine (by common sense measures rather than ATOS) and that they are doing everything possible to mitigate it – looking for a job if they’ve been made redundant, following doctors’ advice if they’re ill, not having a larger family while unable to support what they have, and so on.

    Secondly, that they have contributed tax and NI in this country for a number of years, have provably been working here but so low paid no contributions were due, or have been contributing in another country with which we have reciprocal obligations. Or that they are the sick, disabled or young adult child of someone who has.

    For those of whatever nationality who do not meet these criteria, I am unwilling to pay a penny more than will prevent them from starving in a gutter. If they are not UK citizens, they must be returned whence they came, if they are they must receive very basic food and shelter only.

  • blindsticks

    The only time you see black faces in a crowd cheering for anything ‘British’ .

  • thanksdellingpole

    1. Vote BNP
    2. I wouldn’t care to pay welfare to any non-Caucasian “British born ” peoples
    3. That French chap was a latter day Culturist (

  • Barbara

    Well i’ll go for the welfare state for British citizens only the rest can pay, or if they are married to a British citizen they should be exempt, while living and paying taxes here. Simple really, step forward all prospective partners?????

  • rtj1211

    The economic argument isn’t as strong as you think. Immigrants may earn they way, but by coming they usually create more indiginous unemployment and welfare costs. The biggest benefit is they come with overseas contacts and business skills, since then they can probably add to the economy without displacing anybody. I’m not sure that hospital porters fit that category………

    The question about welfare that everyone on the right must discuss is this: what level of squalor, stress, unhealthiness and life-draining monotony are you prepared to inflict on people through a never-ending race to the bottom in terms of salaries??

    Is it 8 beds to a room hostels?? Is it zero hours contracts with exclusivity? Is it no healthcare without paying for it whilst imposing zero hours contracts??

    It might be a good idea to develop policies, not on computer generated numbers, but on the outcomes on real people and whether you would tolerate what you expect them to tolerate.

    As soon as you say: ‘who cares, I’m all right jack’ you betray your unsuitability for office. I know what half starving is like and trust me, a Cambridge Degree doesn’t prepare you for it. I know what being told you should have learned something at University which wasn’t on the curriculum is like, being sneered at for having followed the system and experiencing that on the mythical £53 a week without social security. What it teaches you is that you were a piece of worthless meat, an inhuman piece of flotsam, a person whose contribution is neither valued nor nurtured.

    It’s not a very good advertisement for either the Labour Party or the Conservative Party to be honest.

    Go try it for as long as it takes to break your mental stability, for as long as takes to make your cheeks white, collapsed and wan, for as long as it takes to make you 10 – 15% underweight. Go try it and see if your life will ever be the same again.

    And ask at the end of it if you will ever respect the Establishment which put you through it again……….

    • Daniel Maris

      This may all begin to change as mass immigration really begins to hit the middle classes who will now find their children up against lots of bright and motivated children of immigrants in the professional areas they thought their preserve like law, finance and medical. We may see some changes in what the political elite think about immigraiton then.

      I agree we need real economics now focussed on providing real sustainable prosperity for people: first and foremost a job guarantee for young people

    • DownwithHS2

      The worst problem with the “immigrants are a solution to an ageing population” theory is that it’s a short-term fix at best. Immigrants grow old too! The answer is not to keep attracting more young people, but to expect more of the healthy old – and to create new patterns of work to appeal to those who are still able to work but do not want to do so for very long hours. Having a number of different career paths in life must become a reality. And I speak as a pensioner myself.

      It’s the same with importing people because the natives lack necessary skills. Why do they? Our education needs to improve considerably; and no healthy adult should have any option but to work for a living unless they have major caring responsibilities.

  • Daniel Maris

    Young migrants ( and most are in the 18-30 bracket) tend to have children very soon after arrival. So they don’t have the general age profile of the rest of the non-migrant population. So soon after arrival they are bringing children into the world who require a lot of financial support: health, nursery school and then fulltime schooling, subsidised housing (through housing benefit or housing associations) and child benefit. The costs fall to the state for most migrants because most are in very low paid work.

    Imagine an alternative strategy to mass immigration:

    1. Restrict immigration and let pay rise, so taking people out of welfare dependency even for unskilled work.

    2. Create a job guarantee for our young citizens, so no one gets sucked into the welfare trap.

    3. Invest in robot and automated technology, to make good labour shortfalls.

    4. Back an active policy of full integration for all our citizens. No more PC diversity nonsense.

  • GentlemanPugilist

    I simply do not accept that ‘migrants tend to put more into the pot than they take out’. I believe that when this has been scrutinised more closely, it has been apparent that some migrants do, for example US bankers working in the City, but then the majority of Somalian immigrants don’t.

    Secondly, if the young immigrants stay and collect a pension, then we’ll need even more immigration to pay for their pensions, and the population will have to grow exponentially.

  • Paul Weston

    I’m not sure the economic benefit of mass immigration is true. It has certainly never been exposed to close scrutiny as it has in the Netherlands, which concluded it costs billions.

    The only thing we really know is via Trevor Phillips Equality Commission, which states more than 50% of Muslims and Africans are unemployed and in receipt of welfare.

    It is not just the welfare state which will collapse as a result of this insane attempt to destroy traditional Britain – it is also our education, economy, tolerance, morality, Christianity, culture and even our race which will collapse well before 2050.

    Left-liberals seem to think it will never happen, but it is ALREADY happening and will go on to its only logical conclusion which is continental religious/tribal civil war.

    Our entire political class and MSM have betrayed this country, and it matters not a jot that most of them are unaware of what they have set in motion. Just because the fuse is of a long burning 25 year duration does not make the initial lighting of it any less a criminal offence.

    • johnslattery

      Denmark also did an immigration audit a few years back, and it too found it was paying out billions of dollars (16 billion kroner a year to be precise, according to Berlingske) for the privilege of being colonized.

      • TonyB58

        It would be a valuable exercise if done impartially, but in today’s United Kingdom even to make such a proposal would be shrieked down by the usual suspects as “racist”!

    • Oliver

      Paul as a politician you should try to temper your rhetoric and sever your ties with the EDL and ex BNP types.

      In one of your interviews on YouTube I saw you talk about how Nick Griffin’s holocaust denial was unconscionable and ensured he would never be taken seriously.

      I think the same applies to you when you talk about tribal/civil war and the real prospect of native Brits becoming the victims of Rwandan style machete wielding ethnic gangs.

      You can make your point without such inflammatory imagery and without the football hooligan element of the EDL.

      I happen to think the EDL is a mixed bag, it definitely has a lot of non white and non racists involved but it also has a lot of racists within it’s ranks (but even the non white and non racist EDL supporters tend to be of the football hooligan ilk) therefore it is political suicide to align with them.

      (I have friends who are active participants in the EDL. One is mixed race and the other I know for a fact is not a racist but they both have criminal records for football related violence)

      I happen to disagree with the idea that Islam is the problem across the board and that a civil war involving native Brits being hacked to death by ethnic gangs is pending.

      So I agree with you on some points and disagree on others but I have to say as a politician you are not very astute for aligning with the EDL and touting the who tribal war thing.

      You should try being a little bit more like Douglas Murray and less like Enoch Powell and Nick Griffin.

  • anyfool

    What a load of poppycock.
    That there was a Welfare State before mass immigration seems to have missed the vacuum in this mans head.
    He says he tends to accept mass immigration is good financially along with a need for young and energetic influx, yet says nothing to support this.
    Just another written copy of some other liberal`s spiel on how to scare the people of this country to accept their twisted logic.
    That they think that threatening people that you cannot have one Welfare, without the other Immigration, this at a time when the general feeling is moving against welfare shows that they do not have any argument against the opposition to immigration.

    • DownwithHS2

      I think you’re misreading it. He is actually saying that mass immigration is destroying the Welfare state – but while this is true his reasons are spurious.

  • TonyB58

    If mass migration was to pay the pensions of our ageing population then why do I have to work until I am 67 instead of 65 before I get my state pension?

    • the viceroy’s gin

      Here, let me take a stab at that one: They lied.

      • TonyB58

        Absolutely. My question was of course rhetorical but it illustrates the contempt in which our “betters” hold us “little people”.

      • TonyB58

        Agreed. My question was rhetorical.

    • Drakken

      At the rate things are going and Detroit being the prime example, your going to be extremely lucky to even have a pension when all is said and done. Good luck, I do hope that you have a plan B ?

      • TonyB58

        Yes the future is not looking good. When I started work it was believed that the age of retirement would become lower not higher! A major problem in the United Kingdom is that we have relied too heavily on a low-cost labour force through contract labour and immigration. Okay in the short-term but now the chickens are coming home to roost as people approach retirement age and only have he meagre state pension to live on. Hence our politicians are now trying to blame “baby-boomers” and have started sniffing around personal assets, remember purchased on net-incomes, arguing that some how these have been acquired at the expense of the young trying to find work and homes today. This of course is nonsense.
        Plan-B? I suspect much more of the same and a hope that something will come up. Our politicians don’t have the calibre, back-bone or vision to introduce the radical policies that would have any chance of turning things around. The only glimmer of hope is that the UK economy has improved although this has not yet been reflected in higher wages or standard of living for the majority, so I’m not optimistic for the future.

        • Drakken

          Over here in the states, the baby boomers are starting to realize that the govt is going to confiscated what they have earned over the years and do a little wealth redistribution. That is why more and more of them are starting to transfer their wealth overseas in order to protect their assets, it is making the govt panic and trying out all sorts of regulations to stem the flow, it isn’t working. I do hope for the best, but I am prepared for the worst. I do wish the best for your retirement and hope there is something or you to retire on.

          • TonyB58

            Thanks. Sorry to here you are facing the same problems in the USA. On a personal level the mortgage is nearly paid plus I’ve been pretty much self-employed for the last thirty years, so I should be okay. Fortunately, I’ve always lived within my means.

            • Drakken

              Hint, wink wink, get your wealth out of merry old England, when the ax falls, God help us all. The Swiss really do a wonderful job by the way.

              • TonyB58

                Problem is that despite everything I have a great deal of affection for the old place and still have some pride in being an Englishman.
                Regarding the Swiss a good friend of mine lived in Switzerland for a year in the early eighties, worked there in the mid-nineties and recently visited as a tourist. He found that on each occasion the country had became shabbier and more crime ridden as a result of immigration: hence their robust response.
                The Swiss response is a bit hard for me but its their country and they can do as they want. Sadly, our political “elite”, bosses and Left do not even bother to properly control our borders, not too hard as we are an island. The only “policies” we get are pointless vans telling illegal immigrants to go home and the victimization of British subjects who are low wage earners and marry a person outside of the EU. Believe me our border agency have told overwhelmingly Australian, US, Canadian, South African (white) and Japanese spouses that they have leave to remain in the UK because their British husband or wife don’t gross £17,500 a year from one source of income! It shows you just what a mess they have got this country when a British subject cannot marry who they want!

                • Drakken

                  Well like the Swiss, jolly ole England by necessity are going to give quite a harsh response when the proverbial SHTF. Sorry to say mate, but sooner rather than later your going to have to get your hands dirty dealing with the 3rd world in your midst, this does not end well, so please do have a plan B. I wish to God I was wrong, but history unfortunately is running true to form.

                • TonyB58

                  That’s what makes me so angry about what’s happened over here. The do gooders and the Left have poisoned raced relations here by allowing parallel and culturally incompatible societies to grow up under the dogma of multiculturalism now “diversity and equality” plus opening our borders to all and sundry. A good friend of mine whose is an old-Labour man and spent twenty-years living in Mexico, so he knows the third world and he now hates the place!, recons its going to kick off in one of the mill towns over something quite trivial, over a girl or the police taking the side of a minority in a dispute. I hope it doesn’t happen but to prevent it we’ve got to grow some and stop illegal and limit legal immigration and make it clear that it you want to live in a developed liberal-democracy you must live by our rules. Unfortunately our spineless politicians and greedy bosses will make gestures but not much else. Plan-B, well a lot of people are moving to Scotland, including my friend, to get away from the mess in England so that’s an option.

                • Drakken

                  Tony, what is happening is making a lot of people angry and like your friend from Mexico stated, it will probably start as something small and then snowball into a full scale Balkans on steroids, I agree with that assessment. I think the time to nip this in the bud has come and gone and what await us is now inevitable and cannot be stopped, it is too little too late for that now unfortunately. It is our fault really, because we let them do this to us without so much as a whimper and they thought is was for our own good, they could not have been more wrong and their traitorous actions (economic, ethnic, religious) are now going to come to its very bloody conclusion.
                  I work in the cesspools of the 3rd world and frankly I enjoy the work because I actually am accomplishing things and getting things done, versus when I worked for uncle sam, which I thought was an exercise in futility, but I count myself as lucky to enjoy coming home to peace and calm and just sitting in a boat drinking a few cold ones trying to catch the elusive Walleye and watching the simple pleasure of watching the eagles and ospreys dive for fish around me. If you broaden your horizons a tad bit you might enjoy the northern states in the US or along the shores of the Dalmatian coast. Food for thought mate.

                • TonyB58

                  Sounds good. And certainly worth checking out. I’ve got a few other irons in the fire if things get too unbearable over here. I just hope it doesn’t come to that. My friend has already moved from a northern mill town to Scotland which has a society more to his liking. Have a good weekend.

                • Drakken

                  Cheers mate! I understand the English are making whiskey again? Any truth to that rumor ? Good weekend to you too.

                • TonyB58

                  I haven’t heard about the Whiskey. All the Best.

                • Drakken

                  I heard that some old distillery that closed down many years ago, somewhere around London way, is up and running again and I can’t find out where. It would be interesting to see if the English version is as good as the Irish and Scotch Whiskey.

                • TonyB58

                  I had a quick look on Google and found this link that will give you some info.


                  Have a good weekend.

                • Drakken


          • TonyB58

            Thanks Drakken. Did send a more detailed post earlier but I appear to have been black-listed by the moderator!

  • Treebrain

    “Mass immigration or the welfare state? Because we may not be able to have both”

    The very fact that James Bloodworth is asking the question half a century after it was first raised shows he is part of the problem, not the solution?

    “I have tended to accept the proposition that immigration (the more the merrier) is an inherent good on the grounds that the economic case for it is strong.”

    Except that the case for mass immigration as a good thing was not ever asked, let alone proven?

    ” It is, however, to accept that there may be a social democratic cost attached to mass immigration that cannot simply be wished away by utopian promulgations that reek of the seminar.”

    Well done James, you are now ready to join the debate with the grown ups!

    • Drakken

      Then why are you living with us westerners if you despise us so much?

      • Treebrain

        Here we go again, your pathetic assertion that I am a muslim?

        As for living with muslims, that is what Israelis will have to get used to when the one-state solution is implemented?

        • Drakken

          You openly side with the muslims hence a muslim collaborator.
          The muslims will never ever give Israel any peace unless it is the peace of the grave. The muslims in Gaza and the Jordanian conquered territory of the west bank will push until Israel says enough and finally gives those bloody savages what they so richly deserve. Carthage.

          • Treebrain

            Er, except that I have not sided with muslims, am not, therefore a collaborator and have views that are considered mainstream.

            Simply because I am aware of the negligence and incompetence of the IDF and Israeli intelligence services and have cited countless examples of both does not make me an enemy of Israel, any more than the former leaders of Shin Bet who appear in the film ‘The Gate Keepers?

            • Drakken

              Nice try hadji lover, the Israelis have for too long have worried about so called civilian casualties when the muzzys don’t play by the same rules us infidels do. The time to take off the velvet glove and put on the iron fist of total warfare has come.

              • Treebrain


                Take of the velvet glove and reveal a fist of clay!

                The IDF is a shadow of its former self, now best suited to shooting unarmed civilians!

                Please remind us, when WAS the last military victory achieved by hte IDF?

                The Lebanon War of 2006? Er no, Hezbollah beat them hands down as the Winograd Reports make very clear?

                How about the invasion of Lebanon in 1982? Er no, they were driven out by popular resistance and international revulsion at events like the Sabra and Shatila massacres?

                How about the battle of Mavi Marmara?

                • Drakken

                  The examples that you revel in are the prime example of why playing with the muzzy savages with kid gloves only backfires and makes our side pay with more blood than is necessary. Islamic jihad that you describe as popular resistance can be overcome by massive amounts of firepower. As for what the self hating, self loathing, limp wristed leftist have to say? I simply tell them to go pound sand. What are they really going to do to us? Have a case of the vapors and call us bad names and have a resolution that carries no weight? Screwem.

                • Treebrain


                  Time to moce on?

                  Israel has used ‘disproportionate force’ for decades and the policy has been a total failure.

                  Rather than causing enemies to cower or inspiring fear and awe, the Dahiya doctrine has been an abject failure.

                  “the civilian infrastructure of adversaries such as Hamas or Hezbollah are treated as permissible military targets, which is not only an overt violation of the most elementary norms of the law of war and of universal morality, but an avowal of a doctrine of violence that needs to be called by its proper name: state terrorism.”
                  (Richard Falk)

                  Israel is not stronger or more secure but actually less so as a result of this tactic.

                • Drakken

                  Oh more leftist garbage, the term disaportionate force is left speak, and it means how dare you use overwhelming firepower to stop the aggression against you. Trust me, when you use overwhelming fire power against your adversaries, they stop shooting at you. Your use of the morality and so called laws of war nonsense when the muslims follow no such norms is laughable, extremely naïve and suicidal. Throughout the history of warfare, you cannot make war to the point you hurt no one and everybody goes home after a day of not shooting anyone. You defeat your enemy by using fire and maneuver and wherever it is needed, overwhelming firepower. Your lucky that I am not in charge of the Israeli General Staff, one rocket fired into my territory results in a Sherman’s March to the Sea and a healthy well deserved taste of Carthage, I will guarantee you that there would be no more Islamic jihad after that. You eliminate enough muslim jihadist, there is no more jihad. That is the nature of war, and I am willing to bet you never put on a uniform and have only joined the peace now and other leftarded organizations that actively support and defend Islamic jihad. As for Falk, effem.

                • Treebrain


                  Still missing the point aren’t you!

                  Disproportionate force was used, for example, against the unarmed Turkish peace protesters on the Mavi Marmara causing many deaths and injuries.

                  As a result, Turkey ended diplomatic relations, insisted that Israel is no longer allowed to participate in NATO activities and closed Turkish airspace to Israeli military aircraft.

                  As a result, Israel is unable to launch a surprise attack against Iranian nuclear targets via Turkish air space.

                  Israel must learn that actions have consequences, the use of disproportionate force against Turkish civilians has now made Israel less secure not more.

                  What was the greater danger to Israel, unarmed protestors on a merchant ship or a nuclear Iran?

                • ganef_returns

                  “What was the greater danger to Israel, unarmed protestors on a merchant ship or a nuclear Iran?”

                  Here we go again. I have been in Prague for a week and return to find that you still turn ANY subject, in this case immigration to the UK, into a diatribe on Israel.

                  As YOU are the one who regularly criticises others from deviating from the subject, perhaps you would care to enlighten me/us the connection between this item and Israel?

                • Treebrain

                  Apologies, you continued after my original post, it is now five times we have read the same post from you!

                • Treebrain


                  Ask friends or family to read all your multiple comments and see if they make sense and are rationale or are you in need of some help?

                • ganef_returns

                  Here we go again. I have been in Prague for a week and return to find that you still turn ANY subject, in this case immigration to the UK, into a diatribe on Israel, Hezbollah, Hamas.

                  As YOU are the one who regularly criticises others from deviating from the subject, perhaps you would care to enlighten me/us the connection between this item and Israel?

                • Treebrain

                  Get help?

                • ganef_returns

                  Here we go again. I have been in Prague for a week and return to find that you still turn ANY subject, in this case immigration to the UK, into a diatribe on Israel, the IDF, Lebanon wars of 1982 and 2006, the Mavi Marmara.

                  As YOU are the one who regularly criticises others from deviating from the subject, perhaps you would care to enlighten me/us the connection between this item and Israel?

                • Treebrain


                  You wrote similar comments below and appear to have lost the plot?

                  We may well disagree on many issues but your behaviour is becoming increasingly bizarre and eccentric, at the end of the day our exchanges are only a form of entertainment and amusement, ask yourself why you are posting multiple times?

                • ganef_returns

                  I am befuddled and Drakken is pathetic but no one dare criticise you. I may have posted five similar comments but you still cannot answer the one basic question.


                • Treebrain

                  Why DID the person who has written five books on computing post five similar comments?

                  Did you just keep hitting the Enter button?

            • ganef_returns

              Here we go again. I have been in Prague for a week and return to find that you still turn ANY subject, in this case immigration to the UK, into a diatribe on Israel.
              As YOU are the one who regularly criticises others from deviating from the subject, perhaps you would care to enlighten me/us the connection between this item and Israel?
              Drakkan is not much better, though.

              • Treebrain


                Do you cut and paste your previous comments and then just add a reference to Drakken to distinguish one from another?

                What is going on?

        • ganef_returns

          Here we go again. I have been in Prague for a week and return to find that you still turn ANY subject, in this case immigration to the UK, into a diatribe on Israel.
          As YOU are the one who regularly criticises others from deviating from the subject, perhaps you would care to enlighten me/us the connection between this item and Israel?

          • Treebrain


            Can you even comprehend that you have even made the same comment three times?

            Is that because you are old, or befuddled after your travel or just a lack of undestanding of technology?

            • ganef_returns

              I am old and befuddled with no knowledge of [computer] technology, having written five books on computing.
              Stop insulting me and answer the question. But you can’t can you?

              • Treebrain

                I am not insulting you at all, I just wondered why the person who has written books on computing entered the same comment five times?

                Our previous conversations made clear that you cannot understand how the internet works as I had to explain to you how to find an article that I cited!

          • Treebrain


            You appear to be exhibiting obsessive behaviour posting time and time again on the same subject?

        • ganef_returns

          Cat got your tongue?

          Enlighten me the connection between this item by James Bloodworth and Israel?

          • Treebrain


            Yet another comment of a similar nature?

            I have courteously replied to all your other comments but perhaps it might be time for you to stop posting until you can recover your senses?

            You currently appear much like King Lear, ranting at the world in your madness time and time again and unable to connect with reality?

            • ganef_returns

              Cat still got your tongue?

              Enlighten me the connection between this item by James Bloodworth and Israel?

  • chan chan

    Of course you can have both. The left wing fascists say so.

  • David Webb

    What an idiotic piece! The economic case for immigration is atrociously weak! Migrants put more into the pot, do they? And you have broken that down by nationality, have you? Is it the Swiss bankers working in London who put into the pot? Or the 75% unemployed Somalis?

    Look! Migrants who take up jobs are not putting anything into the pot. They are merely holding down a job that would otherwise have gone to an English person on welfare. They are in fact hogging the pot. In fact, their arrival has helped to pin down millions on welfare, thus ensuring that the dependency ratio, if calculated to include the millions of working-age people on benefits as dependents of those who are in work as well as children and the elderly, remains unworkable. We have our own unemployed workforce that could be got into work.

    The Economist likes to pretend that its extremist political causes have good economic rationales. Clearly there are businessmen who like paying £6.19 an hour, whether or not people can live on it, and unskilled immigration allows them not to increase the wages to lure people off benefits. Poles may be able to live in HMO buildings and subsist in a way that most English people can’t. The whole labour market is skewed, and the in-work benefits that partly underpin all of this ensure that we are all subsidising low-end labour, something The Economist is supposed to be against.

    The work of George Borjas in the US shows that the increment to GDP cause by immigration is almost entirely captured by wages and benefits to those immigrants themselves – and his work did not include the effect immigration has of boosting crime and spending on policing, prisons and insurance. Put more thought and research into these articles, please!

    • DownwithHS2

      They do obviously create some more jobs and increase GDP, but in most cases far less than those they take up. As you say, in the case of highly-skilled migrants this may be reversed, but we have been allowing in many who are not, and some who are not even willing or able to work. We need to stop where we are, and try to get as many as possible of the people already here into work, regardless of where they come from, before thinking of allowing anyone else in.

      • Oliver

        When we poach the highly skilled from Africa we ensure Africa lacks the highly skilled human resources it needs to become successful, plus we reduce the demand for these jobs -at home- ensuring less homegrown talent steps up to the plate.

        Ditto for skilled tradesmen from Poland and other Eastern European countries. Whilst being a slightly different scenario as they tend to earn their money to invest back home, boosting the economy of their native countries which is a healthy thing as long as they pay their UK tax. The problem is they have reduced the demand for tradesmen when the trades are the only option for the multitude of young British men who are not academically gifted and in years gone by would have entered into our now defunct manufacturing base.

        At the other end of the spectrum we are taking in racist, misogynistic, homophobic, violent disaffected criminal elements from places like Somalia, Jamaica, Bangladesh and Pakistan.

        Worse still when Jamaican or Somalian street gangs terrorize an area or Pakistani immigrants turn to the suicide vest we do not look to reduce that element within our country; instead we insist it is our fault because we are racist. Despite the fact that in the UK today Somalian, Jamaican, Pakistani & Bangladeshi youths are far more likely to be using violence against the native population than the other way around. It’s still our fault.

        If immigration is necessary for the economy then surely it makes far more sense to open the door to communities with a strong work ethic and a history of success (like Chinese and Indian immigrants) and try to limit to a minimum (perhaps asylum only) people who come from countries with a culture of grievance against the West & epidemics of violence and criminality in their countries of origin.

        It should matter not a jot if those grievances are real or not, do we really want to be importing hundreds of thousands of tough young men from war torn Africa or radicalised Pakistan who view Britain and the British as a cowardly, inferior people and culture responsible for all of their problems from slavery to the Iraq War?

        It makes no sense unless you view it through the prism of cultural Marxism whereby we really are the root problem and the only way to civilise us is to reduce our numbers, destroy our culture and make us bow our heads in shame and apologise whenever street violence erupts in black neighborhoods or Muslims kill us on our streets.

  • Terry Field

    A third choice – even more attractive – remove the illegal immigrants and scrap the destructive welfare state.

  • Patricia

    “….For there is increasing evidence to suggest that declining support for social security among people in Britain may not simply be down to ‘Thatcherism’, but also to unwillingness on the part of the British people to see their hard earned money spent on people from overseas.”

    Too true. Who can blame someone who has spent 45 years paying into the system from spitting feathers when new “economic migrants” come along and are given council housing, child benefits, NHS treatment etc.
    All of the millions of immigrants will be old and dependent on the State one day. Who will be earning enough to pay into the system to keep them ?

  • Smithersjones2013

    Hmmm so liberals are finally realising that if you foist one population on another and force them to live in close proximity to each other they don’t really like it. Well go figure. Clearly there is hope for such intellectually challenged individuals.

    Recognition of the fact is not necessarily to endorse it. It is,
    however, to accept that there may be a social democratic cost attached
    to mass immigration that cannot simply be wished away by utopian
    promulgations that reek of the seminar.

    But clearly not much hope…….

    I’d have thought that the Northern Ireland experience was enough to make people realise that having differing cultures in close proximity to each other when one or both does not like the idea is not generally a good idea.

    Still at least liberals are not advising children to accept sweeties from strange men in dirty old raincoats (sorry was that a xenophobic comment?).

  • Denis_Cooper

    “I have tended to accept the proposition that immigration (the more the merrier) is an inherent good on the grounds that the economic case for it is strong.”

    Then you’ve been deceived, or deceived yourself, because numerous studies have shown that mass immigration does not have any significant economic benefit for the host population.

    Here you go, the first of 18 bogus arguments in support of mass immigration:

    Or a more detailed Briefing Paper:


    “8. Studies in Australia [5], Canada [6] and Holland [7] have all come to similar conclusions – namely that the benefit is of the order of 0.1% of GDP per head.”

    and that has proved to be case for the UK as well.

    And what do you mean by “the more the merrier”?

    Are you so stupid that you’d be happy for the entire world population, presently about 7,169 million, to come here?

    7,169 million is more than 100 times the present population of the UK, and what’s more just in the first 7 months of this year it has grown by nearly 48 million:

    • DownwithHS2

      People with this view tend to be highly educated people who only meet highly educated immigrants, with whom, of course, they have a lot in common. They also know of the occasional hard-working plumber, or nurse, or cleaner from overseas. They lack the knowledge or imagination to think beyond that.

  • Oliver

    Immigration is good, I’m all for it within reason.

    I love my African, Jamaican, Indian and Greek friends.

    But a policy of mass immigration which threatens to create white British minorities coupled with a liberal ideology which says the majority oppress the minority, an increasingly radical Islamic faction and a black street culture which glorifies violence and absolves that violence by recourse to the liberal ideology which says it’s all caused by the racism of the majority!!!

    It’s a recipe for disaster.

    Enoch Powell was wrong.

    It’s not immigration which will bring about rivers of blood.

    It’s the divisiveness of a liberal ideology which pitches minorities against the majority by scapegoating the majority as the root cause of all of societies problems.

    It’s the divisiveness of lionizing radical minorities as having legitimate grievances (whether they do or not) whilst elevating their cultures above any national culture for people to assimilate into and seeking to shrink the majority into a minority.

    If a country with a majority Islamic culture or black population was being altered beyond recognition by white immigrants the left would quite rightfully scream blue murder.

    The fact that they cheer on mass immigration into the UK betrays the cold bigotry at the heart of the bleeding heart liberal.

    • Terry Field

      ‘I love my African, Jamaican, Indian and Greek friends.’

      So do I – when I visit Africa, Jamaica, India and Greece.

    • Terry Field

      I believe the poison of the modern illiberal left has a real chance to plunge Britain into a full civil war, if the economy goes the way I expect.
      New Labour have a great deal to answer for as it is.
      They are hated with a fully 17th Century intensity by many millions.
      For Milliband to talk about representing the whole nation is a stupefying lie.

      • Shazza

        Yup, Never forget – Labour – The Party of Mass Destruction.

      • Neil Robinson

        On the contrary, I want the economy to go pop, I want the money to dry up, I’m prepared to lose my house and my job. If the money dries up, so does the welfare, so do the jobs, so does the reason to stay for many who are here.

        Did I want this?? Did I ask for this?? No. Woe betide any politician from Lab/Lib/Con who knocks on my door, especially labour, they will be lucky to leave alive.

    • TonyB58

      Only one major issue I have with your posting is the use of term “liberal” which obscures the real culprits for the mess we are in: the middle class socialists of New Labour and the cultural Marxists who infest so much of our educational establishment, local government and “caring” professions. Yes some Liberals can be pretty dopey when minorities are involved but most I know share the general concern and alarm at the consequences of New Labour’s social engineering project. Indeed it is the very liberal values so cherished by the majority of British subjects, be they Conservatives, Liberals and, yes, working class democratic socialists, that are now under threat as a consequence of the un-mandated mass immigration of so many illiberal minorities into this country.

      • DownwithHS2

        The word “liberal” seems to have become redefined of late to mean more or less the opposite.

        • TonyB58

          Yes. Its an import from the United States where the lazy Right use “liberal” to cover anyone from Hilary Clinton to what we would consider cultural Marxists. It annoys me because our and their society is largely based on liberal values of which, bar the extremists of the left and right, all of us, from the democratic right, centre and old-style, non “PC” left, can agree is a feature of the good society.

          • Drakken

            Us of the right are not lazy nor are we falling for what the commi/left has hijacked for their own meaning. Leftist values are what is driving us over the cliff and you and others of your leftist ilk will be blamed for it.

        • Drakken

          Liberal in the classical sense was what we strived for, the commi/left has hijacked the word to mean something totally different and the word liberal means nothing more than a dirty word.

      • Oliver

        I agree with you Tony as I am one of those liberals you speak of.

        I hate racism, sexism and homophobia. I’m a supporter of the welfare state, the NHS, gay marriage, drug legalisation and strong banking regulations.

        In almost every way I am as liberal lefty as it gets.

        I just can’t abide it when I’m told that the English are not a people and we have no culture.

        That all of our successes were either stolen at the point of a gun or built by our betters (anyone who isn’t English).

        That we invented racism and imperialism (which of course we didn’t), and that we must repent for all time for our involvement in the slave trade.

        (and of course, never, ever take credit for our involvement in ending the slave trade

        That despite becoming one of the most liberal anti racist societies in history we are still so racist that we cause Muslims to kill us and the black community to spiral into crime and murder.

        That it’s all our fault and the solution is to become less English and less Caucasian.

        In other words I’m a pinko lib who can’t stand cultural Marxism.

        • TonyB58

          Thanks Oliver. Yes I agree. Many other liberal minded people are feeling the same concerns you express. Indeed the undemocratic open of our borders by Blair and Brown and the appeasement of the most reactionary immigrant minorities under the banner of “equality and diversity” has poisoned race relations in this country. I fear for our future. I’ll have a look at the link.

        • TonyB58

          Watched the link. Yes typical BBC, much though I love them, and the political establishment. Tended to agree with Hitchens although Vince put his finger on a key aspect of the problem then ran away from it. The young Asian man made the stock, and rather offensive comment used by the Left, define being English, which Hitchen’s rightly responded too. The problem is numbers and the dogma of “equality and diversity” under which totally unacceptable behaviour and attitudes of immigrant groups are appeased and encouraged by their apologists of the left.

          • Oliver

            The scariest thing for me about that link is that -other than Hitchens- even Heseltine, a Thatcherite politician was singing from the politically correct hymn sheet.

            Just saying the word “diversity” seemed to whip the audience into wild applause.

            When I looked at the white people in the audience they reminded me of Communist Part apparatchiks applauding an epic speech by Stalin, terrified of being singled out for not showing the correct amount of enthusiasm.

            It’s pathetic but scary.

            • TonyB58

              I think this shows the measure of success achieved by new Labour/hard Left. We all applaud the demise of racism, which despite leftist fantasy has never been comparable here as compared to other European countries, but now to be anti-racist is not enough you must “celebrate” unquestioningly the Left agenda of “diversity and equality”. Vince did raise the question of the creation of ghettoes but then retreated. This “New Labour/Hard-Left” closing down of any debate that challenges their specific line is real and now, after the introduction of the concept of “hate crime” (when will an islamic fundamentalist be prosecuted for the use of the highly offensive term of “Kuffar”?), makes lose of employment, reputation and even liberty a real prospect for us who don’t have the financial resources or public profile to challenge the orthodoxy of the “PC”, multiculturalist left.
              Also, let’s not forget that it was the bosses hunger for non-unionized labour in the northern mill towns in the seventies that saw the creation of these societies with societies in the north and under Thatcherism that the hard left really entrenched itself in education, local government and the public sector, before the New Labour.governments of Blair and Brown whose policies have continued of course, despite window dressing for the “little people”, by the Coalition.

              • Oliver

                It pre dates the New Labour years.

                In the 80s in London, the multicultural ideology which says all cultures and people are equal (accept white people who are oppressive) was well established in schools and local government.

                I definitely wouldn’t consider New Labour hard left, the SWP are hard left maybe even elements of old Labour but not New Labour.

                This is a mistake a lot of the current critics of the left are making, and it works against what is essentially a valid critique.

                Since Obama (a centrist politician) came to power and the Tea Party movement/Fox News acted like Obama was America’s version of Stalin, it has changed the zeitgeist in America and to a lesser extent in the UK.

                A kind of puritanical libertarianism has become the centre right in the US and has crept on to the fringes of UK politics.

                This means very moderate socialist policies have now been re-branded as Communism light.

                In the US Obama care is touted the first step towards the Gulag and on our side of the pond critics of the cult of diversity, multiculturalism and Cultural Marxism are mistakenly casting it as a concerted effort to bring about a Communist or Islamic UK.

                Whilst I think it definitely points to a suicidal form of white guilt and it is true it has it’s roots in Communist theory it does not point to “Reds Under The Bed” and people assume lunacy and switch off when the critique goes in that direction.

                For me it’s quite simple.

                A genuinely moral concern about racism and the crimes of empire has become ideology and that ideology has metastasized, becoming a deep rooted subconscious, self hatred and a fetishisation (along with hero worship) of those we perceive to be the victims of racism and colonialism.

                It has become a self hatred which is impossible to critique without agreeing to a certain extent with the views of genuine racists, which in turn means those who oppose the suicidal self hatred but are not racist inevitably get lumped in with the BNP.

                So in my estimation, supporting the welfare state and laws against racial discrimination are respectable centre left ideas not hard left lunacy.

                But supporting a policy of unending mass immigration, celebrating white minorities and deeming people of colour and ethnic culture beyond criticism is a symptom of a subconscious suicidal self hatred.

                New Labour (a very centrist political movement) began those policies I believe as a cynical ploy to shrink the Conservative voting base.

                The support these policies receive and the condemnation for opposition to these policies stems from this subconscious self hatred and the fact that disagreeing with the self hatred puts one on the wrong side of the political divide with Nick Griffin.

                The fact that it is subconscious means those who are caught in the web of this ideology cannot see that they are promoting a form of racism and they are rarely consciously pushing for Communism.

                They think they are just being decent human beings working to end the scourge of racism.

                They genuinely believe that by creating a less white and less English England they are helping the oppressed masses partake in our prosperity whilst creating a rainbow nation in which racism will become unthinkable and foreign military adventures unlikely.

                Apart from numpties in the SWP and Respect party not many people actually want Communism or an Islamist future.

                They think that will never happen and apart from their subconscious suicidal self hatred they have no love for Communism or Islamic lunacy.

                They only celebrate Islam and protect Islamism out of a genuine belief that people who criticise Islam and Muslims are following the same path the Germans did with the Jews.

                On both sides of the argument there are nutters like Nick Griffin and George Galloway but most on both sides of the debate want neither Communism/Islamism or racism/fascism.

                Their hearts are in the right place

                • TonyB58

                  Very true. Although perhaps I wasn’t clear about New Labour, they are part of a continuum of the problem faced, in that Neather let the cat out the bag. Of course some of “New Labour”, started their political life close or a part of the Hard Left. Age may be playing tricks on me but I have a memory of Harriet Harman being endorsed by known Trots at a student union meeting at the Central London Polytechnic in the early eighties.

                  Yes the self-loathing of middle-class socialists is pernicious and destructive. Indeed Trots, see Islamic minorities as the means to put them in power after the working class failed in this “historic role”. Breathtaking arrogance which at its heart is deeply racist; but can you really expect anything sensible from people who support this cult longer than their first semester at university? Of course the SWP in its current form may cease to after the saga of “Comrade Delta”! But the mindset will continue.

                  I think it was Voltaire who said that “that those who profess the love humanity in fact loves no one” which is apt for many who profess to “celebrate” the dogma of “equality and diversity”. Indeed in appeasing and patronizing reactionary religious minorities they abandon Gays and women, largely on the basis of race, to their fate and endorse views that if made by others would rightly be condemned as racism..

                  Agreed that the use of “liberal” by American supporters of the Tea Party, right wing “Shock jocks” and increasingly the US Conservative right has been adopted by some Right wing Conservatives, to the detriment of the political debate in this country.

                  I do share your unease at appearing to be on the side of the knuckle draggers of the BNP in this debate. But the efforts by the extreme or Hard Left or, at best, muddle headed must be challenged.To avert my gaze from the un-mandated importation of large numbers of often intolerant and illiberal minorities, who depress the wages of working people, have pushed our Welfare state to the brink of collapse, and who often practice racism, homophobia and misogyny, which offends our society and culture, just to have a quiet life, is an inexcusable act of moral and political cowardice. I am angry at what has been done by our political class, bosses and “diversity and equality” fanatics that has put us in the situation we are in today in our country.

                • Oliver

                  Yes many of New Labour’s on the hard left, flirting with Trotskyism and Stalinism (including Tony Blair) but for the most part they governed as a centre left party on social policy and centre right on the economy.

                  It’s interesting to note that many of today’s Tory party began as supporters of South Africa’s apartheid government.

                  I don’t think anyone should be judged on the politics they had as a student. If that was the case they would probably all be poison at the ballot box.

                • TonyB58

                  Yes agreed.

                • Drakken

                  As you can see by the results SA is a bloody mess, so much for all those good intentions huh?

                • Oliver

                  Um yes South Africa is a crime ridden nightmare but apartheid was a stain on the moral conscience of humanity.

                  Are you seriously suggesting that it was okay for Europeans to claim South Africa as their own then force the natives to live separately as second class citizens?

                  Just as it is immoral for Muslims to come to the UK and use violence and demographics to try to become the dominant culture the same moral logic applies to apartheid.

                  One cannot be outraged by mass immigration into Europe whilst simultaneously thinking it’s a good idea for Europeans to take over other peoples countries but I believe we have spoken on another thread where you were talking gleefully about rope and lampposts so I think I understand where you are coming from.

                • Drakken

                  The whites in SA were the dominant culture before the bantus and Zulu migrated to the south and just by force of numbers had more bodies than the white Boers and Brits. The whites in SA are trying to flee from the mess that white liberal guilt has wrought upon them and the west has turned their collective backs on them because it doesn’t fit the leftist narrative of whites always bad, black or brown always the victim and whitey has to be blamed. I don’t play the white guilt card and have absolutely nothing to apologize for. It is white liberal guilt that is allowing us in the west to be the new SA, and it will turn out to be just as bloody.

                • Oliver

                  Are you seriously saying that South Africa was a majority white country which was swamped by black migration?

                  Even if that were true (which it isn’t) the white population were still not natives and had no right to oppress the black population.

                  You are a potato of epic proportions, and I have no problem using the word racist to describe you.

                  It’s people like you who make it impossible to make a genuinely moral critique of multiculturalism, political correctness and the ideologies of critical race theory and Cultural Marxism.

                  Be gone

                • Drakken

                  That is not what I said, so before you get your panties in a bunch, let me clarify and leave the morality out of the equation for a moment and use hard harsh facts and cold logic and use less emotion.
                  When the Dutch got to SA there were few blacks in that area of Afrika, when the Brits started coming in droves the blacks from the north came as well and conflict was inevitable, does Roarks Drift ring a bell?
                  As for the oppression charge, if the whites didn’t oppress the blacks, the whites would have been slaughtered to the last man, woman and child. What is happening now in SA is no less than white genocide and the good folks who brought down apartheid are completely silent on the issue, and I will go so far as to say that they actively encourage it by their silence and think the white deserve it. SA is now becoming like the rest of Africa, a unmanageable corrupt violent cesspool, the whites in SA are in a quandary, nobody wants them, and to stay is to invite their slaughter, so what are they going to do? Fight or perish is now becoming a reality. You do know that Rhodesia that used to be the bread basket of Africa, is now importing food and is white free right?
                  So you go ahead and use the leftist race card if you must, I am beyond giving a rats azz. Not all cultures and religions are equal period and by importing the 3rd world into the western world we are becoming the 3rd world and conflict is inevitable, you may not like how I say it, but you know damn well what I say is true. Multicultural diversity is a death knell for the west and if your posh sensibilities are hurt, so be it.

                • Drakken

                  Too bad that the race card has been overplayed to the point it has zero meaning anymore, The commi/left has brought us to this point and now the inevitable backlash is beginning despite your leftist protests. There has never ever been a rainbow culture in the history of the planet and when the SHTF we side with who we are and that is people who look like us, it is human nature and no matter how much social engineering you leftist try to make it otherwise.

                • Shazza

                  Homogeneous societies flourish with little strife. Look at Japan.

                • Oliver

                  Drakken can you read or is your mind too clouded with thoughts of killing brown people?

                  My posts have been one long harsh criticism of the left and mass immigration yet you are talking as if I was here to argue in favour of multiculturalism and Europe becoming an Islamic state.


                • Drakken

                  I agree with most of your point made above, but it would seem to me that you still steer a tad left of center.
                  As for thoughts of eliminating brown people? Not hardly, but like anyone from the military, one must have a pan to deal with any contingency. Unfortunately, I don’t see any other way other than surrendering to the 3rd world savages in our midst, but to have to take what is ours by force.

    • Neil Robinson

      No bigger a bigot than a lefty.
      No bigger a hypocrite than a lefty.

  • Iain Hill

    Very confused. Surely the working immigrants will finance the welfare state. It is also useful to reflect that much of this theorising about immigration may simply be a front for racism!

    • Smithersjones2013

      It is also useful to reflect that much of this theorising about immigration may simply be a front for racism!

      Given most of that theorising is by so called liberals, no its not but such an observation does highlight the limited imagination of a sub-intellect that has been conditioned by those who purely wish to control and manipulate to trot out in a knee-jerk manner hackneyed propaganda smears.

      Still at list you admit to being very confused which does sound as if it’s the case.

    • Tim Reed

      Ah – the scurrilous ‘subtext’ ploy.

      “You might not have said anything that can be deemed in any way racist, but I’m going to suggest, without evidence, that racism might be your motivation in order to denigrate you and dismiss your viewpoint… because I can’t compete with your argument in an intellectually honest fashion”.

      You need to try harder now. These tactics are a devalued curreny.

      • Colonel Mustard

        Very well articulated riposte.

    • Colonel Mustard

      Actually if you subscribe to the usual leftist cant that all wrongdoing in an individual is motivated by the impact of others then you should be asking serious questions about the impact of mass, uncontrolled immigration and the attempted suppression of any dissent about it as the prime motivators for radicalisation. Or do you just think it happens to Palestinians?

      • Tim Reed

        “Actually if you subscribe to the usual leftist cant that all wrongdoing in an individual is motivated by the impact of others…”

        Of course this is always selectively applied, depending on the identities of both the ‘individual’ in question and the group identity of the ‘others’. They certainly don’t offer this as a mitigation for the acts of someone like Breivik (nor should they), but other results may vary accordingly.

        • Tim Reed

          The original comment to which this was a reply seems to have been ‘disappeared’.

          Far too much censoring going on in this forum lately.

    • Terry Field

      I liked the racial integration we had until fairly recently. It is long gone and will not return. The near-monoculture was delightful – and greatly valued in many other fine nations.
      Racism is a stupid, infantile word.
      You should grow up. Liking one’s own people is normal and healthy. It should not be sneered at and lied about by people like you.

  • HookesLaw

    Proudhon also said property is theft. Should we believe him in that as well?
    The tory party are not proposing mass immigration not perpetual welfare.

    • Colonel Mustard

      The (New) Labour party proposed it and implemented it. Cameron’s gang have not done enough to reverse it or put in place the necessary safeguards to protect the English people and prevent exploitation of the benefits system by foreigners.

      Too little, too late and lukewarm. The country is being governed by fools. There will be tears before bedtime.

      The pro-immigration lobby, consisting of the “change agents” who brought this about, corporate exploiters, useful idiots and the foreigners themselves who now form another “pressure group” to turn Cameron’s swivelling head it seems, means that this issue will not be resolved easily or soon.

  • Jez

    The facts is that you and your ilk have lied. Constantly.

    If it was a ‘good thing’, you wouldn’t have to lie. But you have to. If you do not, then people in Middle England would not vote for this.

    Problem is, there’s no more feasible lies to tell anymore, things are getting audited more- and due to the sheer volume of people you’ve welcomed in, it is impossible to sweep the facts of unchecked immigration under the carpet.

    If Immigration is as great as you have previously thought, then no worries. It’ll all be ‘great’ in the long run.

    If it’s not, then one day people will look at you Mr Bloodworth and all your colleagues that share this fetish for replacing the culture and people of the UK in the same light as the Appeasers of the Thirties maybe.

    • johnslattery

      “If it’s not, then one day people will look at you Mr Bloodworth and all your colleagues that share this fetish for replacing the culture and people of the UK in the same light as the Appeasers of the Thirties maybe”

      —I already do. Anybody who views mass immigration as a purely economic matter is a traitor. What such people are saying is, “I am happy for this society–built up by my parents and forefathers and numberless other English families over many centuries of hardship and sacrifice–to be given away like a fwcking used caravan at some secondhand sale in a disused layby, to tide us over for the next few years.” That is what the economic argument boils down to.

      I don’t give a shxt about the “economic” aspect of immigration, though that too is plainly a disaster–they can lie and distort, but they cannot yet close our eyes and ears. Our parents fought and died to keep control of this country. And our politicians today are doing their damnedest to give it away. The whole shop, from London to the once lovely little market towns of Lincolnshire. Give it away, to Brussels and every Third World chancer smart enough to wangle the cost of transit to Britain and to fake the paperwork and lie his way through to a social security number. (And yes I do know what I am talking about here.) What utter scum. In parts of Asia, politicians who did this to their people would risk murder. The current generation has the most contemptible leadership we have experienced in all our history.

      • DownwithHS2

        It’s a great mistake to view any economic policy in isolation. All have social consequences, and governments are very bad at predicting or managing them.

      • Neil Robinson

        I would love to see many members of the ultra-left who fully support our race replacement swinging from the nearest tree by their necks.

        They’re f… cking with my life, with my daughters life, her future, her home, everything. I cannot express in words how much I despise the left, hence why I would only be satisfied when I see their hung corpses, hung for all the crimes they have inflicted on my country.

        • Drakken


  • Daniel Maris

    Good to see someone from the Left making a reality adjustment.

    JUst another step to take: recognising that most immigrants do not put in more to the pot than they take out when you factor in the results of a low wage economy, things like housing benefit and declining tax receipts, when you factor in that they can access health, welfare and education without having paid in before, the effects oin population, not least the enormous infrastructure costs of increasing your population by 15-20 million over 30 years, specialist FGM clinics and demands on the security services and the effects on the cost of housing.

  • In2minds

    “After all, migrants tend to put more into the pot than they take

    ‘Tend to’, that’s one way of putting it!

  • roger

    The rich elites do not ‘see’ the people who serve them so don’t mind what they look like or where they come from as long as they do what they are told to.

  • allymax bruce

    Massopendoorimmigration destroys ‘Britain’; purported ‘incoherent goods’ r’ lies. Myths propounded by Ze eelite clazz witch further disenfranchises de indigenous Brits of hard-fought rights & freedoms.
    Establishment Partys lie; thares nae incoherent gods, only

  • sarahsmith232

    anyone watch the ‘How to get a Council Home’ Channel4 show last night? set in Tower Hamlets, I watched with steam coming out of my ears.
    any gov’ with any decency would bring in a new law that means that you have had to have lived in the country for minimum 15yrs to be able to apply and have paid tax on a full time income for a minimum of 7yrs.
    Cameron’s too neurotically terrified of the PR damage though. he’s constantly trying to dodge the ‘nasty party’ of old tag. but it just means that he’s about as far removed from a conscience, heartfelt politician as one can be. he has no actual true heartfelt convictions, he’s just constantly juggling focused grouped, PR positions. one gain among Ukip straying older Tory voters means he then chucks a couple of bones towards the metro lib/green leaning sorts in the hope of balancing one off against the other.
    I’ve given up on him, useless, the original tag was spot on – he’s nothing but a spinning, media performing, PR driven manipulator. true blue heir to Blair.

    • allymax bruce

      Ze Establishment want sectarian divide; ‘divide & conquer’.
      Us, middleclass taxpayers, r’ fodder tae maintain Ze eelite non-taxpaying, non-jobber upperclasses.
      Everything Ze Establishment utter r’ lies.
      We, r’ being conned, 2 keep us down, & them eelite!
      21st century Feudalist methods.

      • Drakken

        When the middle and working class come knocking at the elites door with torches and pitchforks because of what they have wrought upon them, only then while they are swinging from the ole oak tree that they will truly know they did wrong.

    • Colonel Mustard

      He’s a Common Purpose “change agent” and his silly filter is the thin edge of a rather large “behaviour” censorship wedge coming through the door courtesy of the EU and China. Join the dots. Why is “esoteric content” on the blocking filter? Probably because some twenties-something policy wonk doesn’t know the difference between that and erotic. The Comintern have reinvented themselves, embraced corporate capitalism and are winning but like Gilliam’s ‘Brazil’ there will be lots of foolishness and stupidity involved.

    • HookesLaw

      ‘Cameron’s too neurotically terrified of the PR damage though.’

      – the conservatives have for instance announced an end to lifetime tenancies.
      ‘Council homes for life to be replaced by tenancies lasting as little as five years based on need and income’

    • Colonel Mustard

      My reply to you was censored – probably because I used the word er*tic. Shape of things to come. Adults moderated and censored by puerile halfwits without a by your leave.

      • sarahsmith232

        have had that happen to me. really don’t know what’s going on with the Spec’, sabotage or a change of editorial view? they need to sort themselves out.
        have a nice day dear

  • 15peter20

    “Economics should not be determinative of policy”


    “Economics should not determine policy”

    The more words the merrier, I guess.

  • Colonel Mustard

    Interesting that pro-immigration rallies also took place in the USA about the same time as the one shown above. Who organised them?

    Grant Shapps emailed me with news that Labour have “pledged to relax border controls”. Is that true? Where is it stated and what is the reason given?

    • Tim Reed

      …and could those border controls really be any more relaxed than they already are, given the recent revelations as to the entirely haphazard method by which immigration statistics are collected. We have NO idea how many pople are entering our country.

    • Noa

      Did you receive a reply from him?

    • DownwithHS2

      Labour have “pledged to relax border controls”. How?

    • Drakken

      Who organized them? La Raz, unions, leftist useful idiots and their god forsaken good intentions. The American people are increasing getting fed up with our politicians lying through their teeth that illegal invaders are a good thing for our country, when it is as clear as day, it isn’t. That is why the farmers/ranchers on the border no longer call the border patrol, they shoot, shovel and shut up, because they know the Obummer administration will just let them go.

  • Rob Harries

    I would have thought the slow paced planning associated with the Welfare State comes a bit unstuck with quick movements of peoples into/out and within the country. Surely the technical questions of funding and planning against a fluctuating population in certain areas are more of a threat to the Welfare State than this ‘trust’ or ‘familiarity’ stuff that people might think.

    • DownwithHS2

      Very true – which is why some towns who have been attractive to large numbers of immigrants have suffered major problems with their services. Think Boston or Slough. Not that central government is interested.

  • Cornelius

    immigration may increase total gdp, but it does not increase average gdp. the gains go mainly to the immigrants themselves and big business. everyone knows the UK working class has been hit hard by immigration.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      Yes, and it’s the same throughout the West. If you import an underclass, it will depress wages and income for the native working class. Entry level employment becomes a much tighter market, and lower paid overall. The imported underclass skews both employment and the welfare state. It’s insidious.

      It’s the perfect prescription for social unrest… with a disgruntled youth leading the way. Why, it’s almost like it’s been planned this way.

      • Shazza

        And I am sure that a soon to emerge ‘EU Army’ will ensure that we are kept in our places. For our own good, of course.

        • Tom M

          That point is one of my worries. Imagine the Brussels lot with an army to put on the streets!!

          • Shazza

            It will happen; the countries in the EU are now referred to as ‘regions’, so a EU Army is a logical step. The aim of course, is a United States of Europe but no borders, destruction of nationalism to be replaced by totalitarianism. Never, ever forget, that Barosso’s hero is Mao. He would never have achieved his office as President of the EU had his peers not shared his political goals. Islamofacism sits very well with their own policies.

        • Drakken

          Sorry Shazza, but the natives of that eu army will stick with their own over a communist directive.

          • Shazza

            I really would like to believe that and hope that you are right. But unfortunately, I think the sheeples have been suitably brainwashed by the very successful Marxist cultural takeover of civil society.

            • Drakken

              You are partially right, but underneath the surface the natives are seething with the savages in their midst and the commi/leftist who support and defend them at every turn, a very nasty backlash of epic proportions is coming.

    • dalai guevara

      …which is why Farange is now the true defender of the little people. He is a Socialist.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …and maybe if you’re lucky, he can join you fascists, stealing freedom and liberty by the boatload.

        • Drakken

          Pssst hey Viceroy, they are not fascists, they are pure died in the wool red communist.

      • TonyB58

        Beware of Farage. A good friend of mine, who is an old style socialist,of the white, working class variety, was deselected as a UKIP candidate for his local council after he posted a gloating comment at Thatcher’s death on Facebook. Farage, despite his common man act, is at heart a Thatcherite. Fine if that is what you want but beware of UKIPs siren call if you are of the old, style patriotic left.

        • Drakken

          Patriot and leftist in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

        • robertsonjames

          On what planet is a party leader objecting to a candidate gloating publicly about the death of an old woman a dangerous sign? You seem to be utterly blinkered and believe that anyone who might find such disgusting behaviour towards a human being repellent must ipso facto also be a supporter of that human being’s political ideology. Though I suspect you’re too far gone to be aware of it, you provide a perfect illustration of the warped ethics of those left-wingers who imagine themselves to be inherently morally superior.

          • TonyB58

            Errr did I say that I approved of my friends behaviour? The point I am making is to beware of Farage and UKIPs attempts to attract working class votes. They are at heart Thatcherites, hence the vapours when one of their few, actual working class candidate’s expresses his sincerely felt loathing of their heroine.
            For the record I have my own reasons to despise Thatcher although I do agree with your point that it is distasteful to gloat at her death. But you must admit she was a divisive figure to say the least and the distasteful spectacle of the Tory Right trying to elevate her to the status of Churchill I found as equally repugnant and distasteful as the public celebrations by Trots at her death.

          • TonyB58

            Errr did I say that I approved of my friends behaviour? The point I am making is to beware of Farage and UKIPs attempts to attract working class votes. They are at heart Thatcherites, hence the vapours when one of their few, actual working class candidate’s expresses his sincerely felt loathing of their heroine.
            For the record I have my own reasons to despise Thatcher although I do agree with your point that it is distasteful to gloat at her death. But you must admit she was a divisive figure to say the least and the distasteful spectacle of the Tory Right trying to elevate her to the status of Churchill I found as equally repugnant and distasteful as the public celebrations by Trots at her death.

          • TonyB58

            Sir. I did respond to you position clarifying and addressing the issues you raised but it seems to have been deleted, yet again, by the “moderator”.

    • Oliver

      Also as Douglas Murray points out, immigrants get old too.

  • Austin Barry

    I wonder if a Queen’s speech has already been drafted in anticipation of significant civil disturbances?

  • the viceroy’s gin

    So people don’t accept your preferred version of a profligate welfare state, particularly as an existing underclass is being swollen by the importation of additional underclass, even as all understand full well that that this is a fiscally ruinous model, and your conclusion is that people are all racists. Have we got that right then?

    Do you leftists ever wonder why you are scorned so explicitly? Presentations and propositions such as this will only have you cast aside, lad.

  • dalai guevara

    Finally the realisation that the welfare state will take care of itself.
    It’s the free market capitalists that depend on immigration as a means to forever lower salaries and maximise shareholder value.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      Well, once you fascists import enough underclass, you can take care of all that, as per usual.

      I mean, if you can’t bring the mountain to mohammad, you can have mohammad go to the mountain.

      • dalai guevara

        The underclass from New Zealand, only preceeeded by that of Canada? How dare you. British banking relies on it. We would otherwise be unable to fill the vacancies…

        • the viceroy’s gin

          No, still undecipherable, lad.

          Cyrillic. Try Cyrillic.

          • dalai guevara

            Read the news, old man. The immigrants are coming in droves!

            Other than that, the Speccie ought to start charging you for a waste of column inches. You’re not -as I suspected earlier- a fossil fuel door salesman, but merely a paperboy letter bombing the same old same old over and over again. We cannot wait until you grow up.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              You mean “we” as in you and the other fascists, whimpering about being caught out?

              • dalai guevara

                Even the telegraph headline (!) the fact that ‘Home Office immigration crackdown is likened to ‘Hunger Games’.

                They would not dare use your words, of course – you know, that reminiscing Reichspropagandaleitung stuff. Good.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Cyrillic, lad.

                  You simply must go to the Cyrillic.

                  Or maybe drumbeating, like they use to communicate in the jungle.

                • roger

                  Why blame old saint Cyril, a star of European culture.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  No blame, it’s meant as a safety line, as this particular fascist seems to have difficulty communicating.

                • roger

                  What is this ‘hunger games’?

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  We won’t know ’til it’s translated into something intelligible.

                  I suggest Cyrillic.

                • Drakken

                  Where people kill each other just to eat.

            • IanRutherford


      • Shazza

        I think that they have done that, literally.

    • chan chan

      Don’t forget your appointment at Hugo Boss to have your uniform fitted. They look really good…

      • dalai guevara

        Have you ever been to Metzingen?
        The outlet store is full of Koreans, I am told – South Koreans

        • the viceroy’s gin

          If you trim back wilted day lilies, periodically, there can be also freshly mowed lawn, and today is Friday, so it’s certain that tomorrow is… supersonic.

          • dalai guevara

            As usual you belittle the posters when the facts are presented to you. Do you want me organise a tour of the factory now?


            • the viceroy’s gin

              The problem is, supersonic day lilies are only trimmable by beds in shedders, and beat that into your jungle drum and contemplate…

  • Shazza

    James, it will not just be the welfare state that is going to collapse, but social cohesion. Both the BBC and the MSM continue to promote this misleading illusion that all is well and that the indigenous population are perfectly happy with this new and ‘vibrant’ society. They systematically ignore and refuse to publish the ongoing racist attacks on indigenous whites by other ethnic groups and are keen to promote the idea that only whites are racists. Another point – this is a small island and resources are already stretched. When animals, be they rats or people are confined to a small space, they will fight for what resources there are. It’s called self-preservation.

    • James Mayer

      Very well said. If nothing changes, I personally predict either state-imposed segregation of differing peoples within European nations or all-out civil war on the continent within about two to three decades. The ethnic tensions being caused by multiculturalism are horrifying to those of us who are actually bothering to pay attention. Have you seen the website

      • Drakken

        All out civil war is coming and it will be soon, not in the coming decades.

        • robin

          I hope so I am sick of living in 3rd world country I want our smart white country back

    • hellosnackbar

      Due to the present state of affairs with various pathological poltroons ,arguing as to what the empirical truth is ; it would seem logical to have a series of referendums preceded by public debate.
      Democracy is logically that which is determined by majority ; not politically correct quasi criminal dogma as practised by our political parties ,confined by Gramscian dogma.
      Ask the people and perform their wishes!
      If parasitic immigrants become subjected to discriminatory pressure ; then so be it.
      Liberty if it means anything is the right to tell others; that which they may not wish to hear(George Orwell)

  • Emulous

    At long last.
    Abolish universal benefits so that the Human Rights lobby are stymied.
    The economic scroungers will go home.
    Those who benefit the economy will stay.
    We can cope with the needs for a safety net via charity.
    I challenge a political party to adopt this for the General Election Manifesto.
    They would clean up.

    • hellosnackbar

      Excellent !
      Dogma should never trump common sense!

  • Martin Adamson

    Really? Incidentally James, have you ever noticed that water is wet and fire is hot?

    • Oliver

      I think there is more to it than merely garnering votes.

      Although vehemently denied by the left I believe their love of mass immigration stems from one of their core beliefs, which is that racism, nationalism and xenophobia are white diseases which are at the root of most of humanities problems.

      From the war in Iraq to problems in Africa and black on black crime in the UK and US, they believe wholeheartedly that white bigotry is the root cause.

      Therefore by diminishing white majorities they believe they will eliminate the scourges of racism, bigotry, xenophobia and nationalism.

      Not to mention get some payback for the crimes of Empire.

      As the old refrain on the left goes.

      When we are all coffee coloured there will be no more racism.

      It’s naive stuff but it’s pernicious and reveals the racist tendencies of the liberal minded

      • Martin Adamson

        It’s always a mistake to assume that the Left are sincere in anything they loudly proclaim as their key principles. About 15 years ago most leftists would have said feminism and gay rights were among their key principles, yet they were dumped like an flat-chested girlfriend with herpes as soon as a more shaggable partner – islamofascism – came along.

        • Oliver

          Oh they still bang on about feminism and gay rights it’s just something to bash white heterosexual men over.

          There is a hierarchy of the oppressed and oppression.

          The oppression of women and gays is trumped by the oppression of an ethnic minority and the oppression carried out by ethnic minorities is always trumped by the uber oppression of the thoroughly evil white male.

          To get around all the cognitive dissonance involved in such a view they rationalise the violence and oppression carried out by ethnic minorities as a reaction to imperialism and racism or say it doesn’t exist.

          • Tim Reed

            True – and in so doing, they break one of their own cardinal rules – ‘don’t blame the victim’.

            The left’s so-called principles are completely flexible, dependent entirely on demographics and identity.

            • Oliver

              I think you hit the nail on the head.

              The left have become enslaved to identity politics which itself is a form of racism as it categorises people based on their racial identity.

              A rich African is still a member of the noble oppressed and a poor white man is still a member of the oppressive, privileged status quo.

              • Tim Reed

                Yes – they are simply incapable of understanding the inherent bigotry in dividing people up into separate ‘communities’, drawn entirely along lines that conform to their own worldview, and addressing each group accordingly. It’s a deeply patronising philosophy.

                • Oliver

                  It’s worse than that as they use identity politics to dispose of rationality.

                  If a woman says she is the victim of sexual harassment the evidence for her claim is irrelevant.

                  As the member of an oppressed group she is considered uniquely qualified to spot discrimination and bigotry and her word trumps the word of the man she is accusing regardless of actual guilt or innocence.

                  If that woman is white and she is accusing a black man of sexual harassment then we get into oppression top trumps and his status as a person of colour trumps her status as a woman.

                  It has created a situation where truth and evidence are irrelevant.

                  People of colour almost always deserve respect and deference (unless they have conservative views), women are next and white men are always assumed to be wrong in any dispute with a person of colour or woman.

                  The only good white men are the ones who self flagellate, meekly bow their heads and admit they are members of an inferior, privileged and oppressive group.

                  The complexities and individuality of human kind be damned.

                  I always thought that was the definition of bigotry to judge great swathes of humanity based on their racial or gender identity.

                  Apparently it’s all good as long as you are fighting for “social justice”

                  They say truth is the first casualty of war, I would add that truth is the first casualty of identity politics.

                • Tim Reed

                  “It has created a situation where truth and evidence are irrelevant.”

                  Absolutely. Good post.
                  There’s an extended attempt at explanation here…


                • Oliver

                  Wow what an absolutely spiffing article. Funny and true

                • Oliver

                  I’m in the midst of a debate on Facebook with some of my radical black and white liberal friends.

                  They posit that there is absolutely no question that the world is in the state it is in because of the twin menaces of Zionism and global white supremacy.

                  When I pointed out that Israeli land mass was about the same size as Wales and the body count in places like Darfur and the Congo far exceeded the entire history of the Israeli Palestinian conflict they said but most bankers had Jewish sounding names and the IDF targets children.

                  (neither of which are true)

                  When I said that there was no evidence that Britain or America had any white supremacists in office and that both the UK and US had laws which explicitly outlawed discrimination based on race I was told that most of the bankers had white skin and most people in prison had black skin.

                  Apparently this constitutes solid evidence that white supremacy and Zionism are the root cause of everything from global warming to Chicago’s murder rate.

                  I’m a blinkered fool not to see it!

                • hellosnackbar

                  This is a demonstration that leftist lunacy is a version of religious belief!
                  When dogma trumps common sense I often wonder whether it’s acquired mental pathology!

                • Drakken

                  They do say that leftist/progressivism is a mental disorder.

        • hellosnackbar

          Ha ha ha!
          A statement of reality can make one laugh out loud!

      • AtMyDeskToday

        “racism, nationalism and xenophobia are white diseases which are at the root of most of humanities problems.”

        I suspect that the two Poles sentenced to 30 years for child murder are just such a case. Any suspicions were not followed up on for fear of an accusation of racism. How much simpler to look the other way, then when the proverbial hits the fan you express regret and assure everyone that lessons have been learned and procedures changed.
        Racism = the sack. Failure to act = a diversity training course.

      • Neil Robinson

        Hence why I despise them so much.

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