Coffee House

Zimmerman verdict: the American Left only likes juries when they get the result they want

16 July 2013

There is almost nothing more emotive than a murder trial, particularly when it takes place in the United States and involves the shooting dead of a black boy on the basis of self-defence. Public sympathies are inevitably roused and divided on the basis of prejudices and predilections. That is understandable. It is understandable that disaffected black youngsters in Florida hoped to see George Zimmerman found guilty and Trayvon Martin vindicated: for all that it would do, for all that it would say.

The converse is also true. Neighbourhood activists like Zimmerman, many members of the American public who live in fear of kids on the streets, those who themselves have been victims of attacks; these people no doubt harboured a silent hope that Zimmerman would be acquitted. That too is a natural yearning. We all look at court cases and cannot help but let our experiences, our politics and our backgrounds affect what we hope will be the outcome.

That such responses are understandable and inevitable does not make them any less irrelevant to the question of what is a just verdict. Court cases are not fights between two competing social narratives where the outcome is to reflect a political injustice or a deeply-held prejudice. What the verdict says about society is a non-sequitur: the verdict says nothing about anything other than the evidence itself. In Criminal Courts such as this, the State must prove its case beyond reasonable doubt and it is that alone which a jury is directed to return a verdict upon. It is not concerned with the probabilities of ‘what happened’, nor is it concerned with the trends, contexts or root causes in relation to which the case arises.


It is therefore profoundly distasteful for the American Left to have reacted to a jury decision with immediate and universal cries of ‘miscarriage of justice’ because, to their shock, the jury’s verdict did not accord with their own gut feelings or second-hand reflections on the evidence. Of course juries sometimes make mistakes. However, to conclude from behind your own PC, without having heard any or all of the evidence, that Zimmerman is a guilty man is in fact to assert that there was in fact evidence which showed beyond reasonable doubt that he murdered Trayvon Martin. On a forensic analysis, that is a frankly extraordinary claim to make. It is tantamount to suggesting that the six female jurors deliberately sat there and did not fairly evaluate the evidence which they heard.

Those shouting about miscarriages of justice are now belatedly trying to bolster their case with the recent revelation from a juror that three of the jurors were initially in favour of convicting Zimmerman of either manslaughter or murder. They were talked round by the others. Juror B37 said that faced with this split, the jury started going through all the evidence, listening to tapes multiple times. ‘That’s why it took us so long,’ she said. This does not in any way support the view that something went awry with the process. It demonstrates precisely the strength and function of the jury: to discuss, to re-consider, to persuade, to argue. The decision is meant to be a collective honest view on the evidence reached by ordinary people. Their starting point is irrelevant, it’s the consensus, the position reached, that matters. The evidence to convict Zimmerman was found not to be there.

This case reveals a broader truth. In an age when everyone follows everything on Twitter and all views have equal access to prominence, the Rule of Law faces a hard task in standing strong against powerful public voices. On this occasion, the loudest voices were from the liberal commentariat pushing a political agenda. But for those commentators to maintain that this case was a ‘miscarriage of justice’ simply because the verdict jars with their hopes is a demeaning position for them to take, undermining the very belief in civil liberties that they purport to hold dear.

Jeremy Brier is a Barrister at Essex Court Chambers. He stood for Parliament at the 2010 General Election. Follow him on Twitter @jeremybrier

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  • thanksdellingpole

    Pro negro bs

  • Piggly Wiggly

    Well said, and it needs saying more loudly and more often in the West today. Notice I said the West, not just America. –Signed, longtime Florida resident

  • Knives_and_Faux

    One thing is for certain, the gutter rat won’t be stealing any more jewelry.

  • Tom Tom

    I have no opinion on the verdict but I am surprised that the Supreme Court in 1970 allowed Juries to have as few as 6 Members and astounded that those 6 Jurors were ALL women. I find it hard to see an all-woman jury as representative of peers

  • TonyB58

    From the limited amount I’ve read about the case it seems more to justify proper gun control in States. Martin was getting the better of Zimmerman in a fight so he reaches for his gun and Martin’s shot dead. Of course the fact Zimmerman had and could use a gun in such a case was legal so the jury acquitted. Perhaps some jurors had originally prejudged the case but so what, being won over by argument is part of the jury process.

    The wider point of the article about the left’s intolerance when juries reach verdicts or judges give sentences at which they disapprove is relevant to this country too. Look at the shrieks for from the usual suspects that foolish Jeremy Forrest should have got a longer sentence as a recent example.

  • Wilhelm

    Jewish American woman holding a rally in support of Trayvon Martin

    ”She tells white people that it’s “not enough to feel bad, it’s not enough to not be a bigot”, you have to “check your privilege every single day” and give money to organizations, “because racism is a national disaster, just like hurricanes, and bombings, and shootings are.”

    • Patricia

      ” …give money to organizations … ”
      I can imagine how any donations will be spent.

      What’s does “check your privilege mean” anyway ? Silly cat.

  • Wilhelm

    An African American slags off his fellow backs, race hustlers Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson in response to the Zimmerman trial

  • youngreen

    it was interesting that news reports didn’t mention that the that zimmerman claimed that he was attacked by martin, it was alleged that martin held zimmerman on the ground and repeatedly banged his head on the floor, something that is called ‘ ground and pound, a witness gave evidence to that effect, and photos’ of injuries to the back of zimmermans’ head would appear to support that claim. it may be that he acted in self defence, and was not guilty, but that verdict doesn’t suit left wingers.

  • Treebrain

    “… and involves the shooting dead of a black boy on the basis of self-defence.”

    Not just any shooting of a black child, but the fact that the person who committed murder was Jewish.

    Why DO the press make such an issue of the fact that the victim was black, but not mention that Zimmerman was Jewish?

    • ganef_returns

      Because they are not anti-Semitic as you are.

      • Treebrain

        Well done ganef!

        Thank you for pointing out the Jewish origin of the man who murdered a black child.

        There is nothing anti-Semitic about it is there, any more than the fact that OJ Simpson, a black man, may have killed his white wife and her Jewish friend.

    • hasbara

      Your avatar says it all – a nutcase.

      Considering his father was a practicing Catholic and has his son George baptized, sent him to a Catholic school, and had him volunteer at a church as an alter boy, I would say the indications strongly point to no.

      The only reason why people say he is Jewish is the false perception that a name like Zimmerman means you must be Jewish. However it is a German name, and not specifically Jewish at all. People just want to claim it is to create some sort of conspiracy theory, such as “the media just doesn’t print it”.

      But as I said, his father is a practicing Catholic who married a Peruvian Catholic lady and had a son who they baptized and brought up in a strict Catholic household.

      of course, NONE of this is relevant to the case of his guilt.

      • Omphaloskeptic

        Give Treebrain a chance! From this acorn of thought a mighty oak may yet grow!

      • Treebrain


        Welcome back!

        How fascinating that your comment is not addressing the murder of an innocent child carrying iced tea and Skittles who was attacked and shot dead by an armed adult male.

        Despite the advice of the person who told him over the phone not to engage with the child, George Zimmerman shot and killed a black male child!

        As for George Zimmerman being Jewish, how many Jews try to disguise their racial, ethnic and social origins in the US?

        Robert Allen Zimmerman became ‘Bob Dylan’ because he was embararssed to bear the name ‘Zimmerman’.

        How many Jews change their names to Anglo- Saxon names and WHY do they do it?

        Why did Jonathan Stuart Leibowitz change his name to Jon Stewart?

        How about Winona Laura Horowitz becoming Winona Ryder?

        Ralph Lifshitz becoming the Anglo Ralph Lauren?

        The list goes on and on about Jews trying to disguise their roots, even today they are still doing so, but WHY are they ashamed of being Jewish?

        • pedestrianblogger

          Are you saying that Zimmerman changed his name to Zimmerman in order to disguise his “Jewish origins”?

  • William Reid Boyd

    I don’t recall the British Right being cock-a-hoop about the Abu Qatada hearings.

  • Wilhelm

    Why is the liberal media portraying Zimmerman as a Nordic Aryan white man when he’s a Hispanic, latino Mexican ? I suppose it doesn’t fit their marxist anti white narrative

    • therealguyfaux

      Peruvian, to be precise about it– just like Snooki, whose Hispanic background, because she conforms more to the “Guido” (i.e., Italian-American chav) stereotype due to her upbringing, is conveniently disregarded.

    • Augustus

      That’s because white liberals seem to have been conditioned to see blacks as victims of a society in which they are at a disadvantage because of their skin colour. If Trayvon Martin had killed someone white or Hispanic, and had been acquitted, nobody would be calling for new procedures of justice to enforce that victim’s civil rights. George Zimmerman was acquitted under a proper legal system, yet that’s somehow not good enough because his victim was black, and he happened not to be.

  • Wilhelm


  • the viceroy’s gin

    We’d never know it, because of the media blackout, but did you know that the Ft. Hood shooter is on trial right now?

    That’s right. Jury selection is just finishing, for the islamofascist murderer who slaughtered all those US servicemen, and wounded so many more.

    And not a peep anywhere in the media. Funny old world, innit?

    • crosscop

      Now, come on. Why would common or garden “workplace violence” be of interest to anyone? It’s not as if it was a jihadist terror attack, is it? I mean, all he did was spray his colleagues with a few bullets and shout some advertising slogan about “Allan’s Snackbar.” Hardly newsworthy… happens all the time…

  • David B

    A bishop was on the Nolan show on Radio 5 Live on Sunday night.

    His first statement was to suggest the jury was racialist, with his first question being about the number of black people on the jury, as if a jury selected in acordance with the law was unacceptable. At no point did he even consider that the evidence against Zimmernan may have been insufficent to convict.

    The worst aspect was the underling impression he left me with was that he thought this was a racist crime and as a result Zimmerman did not even deserve a trial but should have just been convicted!

    It’s frightening to think that because of the colour of an accused skin certain sections of the media and establishment think you are not entitled to a fair trial.

  • Baron

    What anyone informed by a biased media thinks matters not abit, the jury found the guy not guilty, and that’s it.

    The most obnoxious episode of the case was the messiah’s interference. If a proof was needed of how seriously America’s fugged up, that was it.

  • emiller7

    Neither the authorities nor the accused come out of this case very well. There seems to to be grave discrepancies. However the jury found Zimmermann not guilty and thus the law is satisfied.

    • HookesLaw

      Oh really – what about the victim? He was in fact the perpetrator of an assault In which he was killed. What proof is there that it was the other way around.

      • emiller7

        It’s why we have juries.

  • NedMissingTeeth

    It’s interesting to see how the Guardian and the BBC have reported on the protests following the jury’s not guilty decision. The Guardian especially has been quick to agree that there’s been a some sort of mistake with the Zimmerman verdict and those protesting in the US have every right to voice their anger and concern. Compare this to the Lee Rigby murder

    A soldier was hacked to death on the streets of Woolwich. There was no doubt about who the killer was as it was all filmed in broad daylight. The killer was wielding a bloody knife and could be heard shouting “Allahu Akbar”.

    I’d have thought this tragedy would have been ripe for protest due the religious and shocking nature of the murder. Instead the Guardian and the BBC chose to demonize the EDL and anyone else that protested as far-right, extremist fascists who were little more than knuckle-dragging racists intent on causing “community” unrest. Obviously the BBC and Guardian don’t believe the Islamification of the UK is important or worth protesting about. The increasing Muslim population can only lead to a growing Islamic political influence, how does this benefit ANY non-Muslim? The Religion of Peace is anything but. A protest was and is in order.

    • NedMissingTeeth

      …Went a bit off topic. Oops : )

    • HookesLaw

      Its interesting to note for instance the Guardian’s escalating definition of race since Martin is black and Zimmerman is half hispanic. Its also worth noting that NBC edited a tape of Zimmerman’s 911 call to imply he volunteered Martin’s race. When listened to in its entirety he was asked for it.

      The media – these are the people who think they are beyond independent regulation.

      The EDL are a bunch of gobshites and this issue has nothing to do with musims. By bringing this up you show yourself to be as bad as the Guardian

      • NedMissingTeeth

        My point was how the media on both sides of the Atlantic can control and manipulate any given situation for their own political ends. Why were the BBC and Guardian so quick to condemn the Lee Rigby protesters as thugs yet so eager to give the Trayvon Martin protesters at least the benefit of proper debate and scrutiny?

        Have the Guardian or the BBC given that same level of scrutiny and debate as to why Lee Rigby was killed and the role Islamic extremism had in his murder? Both the BBC and the Guardian were more concerned about a possible Muslim backlash instead of the genuine concern of religious bigotry especially among the Muslim population.

    • Nicholas K

      The Guardian and the BBC are the usual suspects, but what is extraordinary about the reporting here of the proceedings is how papers like the Telegraph were completely sold on the “white man tracks unarmed black teenager and wantonly shoots him dead” line pumped out by the NAACP/Eric Holder/MSNBC. The Telegraph’s story on the acquittal even used the old photo of Martin as a fresh faced 12 year old, not the snarling aggressive lout he had become. Such Groupthink, which ignores even the most basic facts and looks instead to the “wider narrative” of racial “justice” is frightening.

      • Span Ows

        The fact that all the facts were available very soon afterwards makes this journalistic lapse even more worrying, a monkey with one minute online could have found out more than most media reported.

        Obama’s intervention only days afterwards and the US media editing evidence to try to paint a different picture** only adds to that worry.

        ** happens daily at the BBC, par for the course

  • Curnonsky

    The entire phony racial component to this case was concocted by the media – chiefly NBC – and race-bating charlatans like Al Sharpton. Naturally they found a willing ally in Obama who claimed that if he has a son he’d look like Trayvon Martin, as though any offspring of his would have the slightest in common with hoodrats like Trayvon. Lynch-mob justice is bad enough, but to have the president leading the mob?

    • chan chan

      I can’t wait to try Trayvon’s favorite, ‘Purple Drank’ – codeine linctus, Skittles, and Mountain Dew.

      Sounds ace…

    • HookesLaw

      With its Hispanic vote is Florida a Republican victory in 2016? Will JEB or George P run in 2016?

    • stephen rothbart

      Don’t be so hard on Obama, he seldom has a clue what he is saying.

      Just remember who was there pushing Obamacare through to law and in fact drafting it? Pelosi and Reid. Obama was hardly to be seen. The same with Syria. Gone fishing. Now he is seen to have backed the wrong horse…again…and who is running offence again to push through some bogus federal law? Holder. who should have been impeached ages ago himself.

      And where is our glorious leader? Gone fishing again.

  • paulus

    That boy was walking down a street as was his right, some one with a paranoid fantasy against him has no right to follow him, confront him and shoot him dead. If you are walking way from a property, that is the essence of the Law. If you subvert the law to include: I dont like the look of him there is no rule of law.

    • Span Ows

      Please, don’t comment such rubbish; you are as bad as the very poor media (and Obama!) that exacerbated this whole thing from the word go; at least get an inkling of the facts.

      • paulus

        Zimmerman walked out of his house to confront him. He was on the phone all recorded saying thats what he was going to do. Thats called pre meditated. Some one following you armed and delusional is provocation.

        HL two nutjobs ! lets be honest we aren’t going to resolve our differences until im reading out your obituary and its going to be a little bit difficult pleading self defence if I kick your face thru a drain grate. So fill the bath and jump in with a plugged in three bar electric fire.

    • HookesLaw

      Who says he was followed and confronted and not the other way around?
      The left seem happy to ignore Jurisprudence when it suits their prejudice.

      it is amusing and instructive to see two nutjobs arguing.

  • MalcolmRedfellow

    A “killer” fact: an armed, self-appointed vigilante stalks, engages and somehow shoots and kills an unarmed youth. But that’s wholly covered by the “Stand your Ground” and “Carry concealed” laws. Not guilty in law. And in morality?

    A “killer” question: had Trayvon Martin’s complexion been a lighter hue, would he be dead?

    Like it or not, somewhere in there the issue of race intruded. Cue the sub-texts (and some not even bothering to be sub-) below.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      In morality? You have the right to defend yourself, using lethal force. You may not like that, but that’s both the morality and the law of it.

      Stand your ground has nothing to do with it. That’s an adornment, to drive off overzealous prosecutors. Zimmerman’s lawyers didn’t touch that part of it, they simply relied on their client’s right to defend himself using lethal force. That gets him off murder and manslaughter charges, if the jury thinks he was defending himself, which they did.

      Race intruded because race pimps are always like that.

    • alabenn

      An old black man shot a middle aged white man, he is now claiming stand your ground.

      There has been over a hundred cases in Florida and the majority of deaths are not black, given their predilection for black on black murders this is very surprising.

      But that will not interest you as it does not fit your prejudices.

    • Span Ows

      Malcolm, please read the facts that you seem to wish to ignore, it may change your mind although somehow I doubt it.

    • Curnonsky

      An “unarmed” 6′ 2″ 17-year-old who was beating his head on the pavement. What does race have to do with it?

      • MalcolmRedfellow

        There’s at least one unconfirmed assertion, that comes with no “concrete” basis, in there.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          …what would that be?

        • HookesLaw

          But you have no confirmed assertions to the contrary and Zimmerman is the one with the broken nose 2 black eyes and various lacerations.

        • Curnonsky

          Such as? The physical evidence of both Martin’s and Zimmerman’s injuries supported the self-defense argument, which is why the jury voted to acquit. Unfortunately for the Left evidence that they have imagined in their race-obsessed fever dream can’t used in court (yet?).

    • Andy

      Were you sat in Court and heard all the evidence ??

      You say ‘Not guilty in law. And in morality?’ ??? How can you judge or opinion for that matter, when you do not know the full details of the case, lest you were sat everyday listening to the evidence.

      Is race an issue here ? No. And as I recall Zimmermann isn’t ‘white': he is Hispanic.

      But perhaps you would have preferred not to have bothered with a trial. You have decided that he was guilty without a word said.

      • MalcolmRedfellow

        The official description seems to be “white-Hispanic”.

        • Span Ows

          “white-Hispanic” FFS, making Obama white black or black white?

        • HookesLaw


          • Wilhelm

            Hooky ” Pathetic”

            Don’t put yourself down.

        • Colonel Mustard

          What is the origin of that “official” label “white-Hispanic”? Who created it? When?

          I’m in no doubt as to what “Hispanic” means but I’m struggling to understand where the dividing line between “white” and “black” is drawn, by whom and how.

          • crosscop

            “White Hispanic”? It’s not official. A New York Times reporter made it up, I believe.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          Well, with all this racial confusion, I believe the Nuremberg Laws may be the closest precedent for us to make use of here. Perhaps they can give us guidance as to how fractional race elements are to be standardized, so that the appropriate societal judgements can be made, and a proper racial spoils system allocated. You can’t judge the teams without a lineup card, as they say, and thank goodness that other 1000 year paradise left us with the means to do all this good work.

          But we lesser mortals are still trying to get our heads wrapped around the concept of Obama as a white-black, or is it black-white?

    • MalcolmRedfellow

      Obviously the viceroy’s gin comes flavoured with Floridan lemons. I’m more of a “reasonable force” than a “lethal force” proponent – else exiting the Central Line compartment at rush hour becomes distinctly iffy.

      As for “facts”‘ they’re slippery little buggers, aren’t they? I thought I’d followed the trial in some detail. It seems I should only have read the headlines. But “race pimp”! Wow, that’s a new one for the trophy cabinet.

      Then there’s the whole business of “Stand your Ground”, the “NRA-drafted law”. The local idiots will find a simple introduction at:

      • the viceroy’s gin

        Lethal force is considered reasonable force, lad, in this case. When you’re under attack, lethal force is a reasonable response to it. That’s morally and legally. You can look up both.

        Race pimp is a well known term, so perhaps you just don’t have sufficient command of the language. It is used re those who have attached themselves parasitically to a deep pockets race case, as per Zimmerman’s homeowners association in Florida, with a mega bucks insurance policy ripe for the picking. The race pimps discover that bit of welcome news, and suddenly young Trayvon’s death becomes a tragedy, unlike the 4 Chicago youth shooting deaths that have occurred during the 20 days of this trial. Why? No money involved in those 4 kids’ deaths, so the race pimps don’t bother about them. The Trayvon shooting gets them paid. They converge, race pimps that they are. It’s well known and well played out, over the years.

        As I say, stand your ground had nothing to do with this case. Try to keep up. It was a self defense case, and that concept is many centuries old, fyi.

        • MalcolmRedfellow

          In point of fact (a commodity in short supply here) the term “race pimp” says more about the person using it, and his associations, than anything to do with its intended target.

          In a different context, perhaps:
          “… a lady passing by was heard to say
          She says, “You can tell a man who boozes
          By the company he chooses”
          And the pig got up and slowly walked away.”

          • the viceroy’s gin

            In point of fact, you aren’t presenting any facts, morally or legally, so it really doesn’t much matter what you think about the (heretofore unknown to you) usage of the term race pimp.

            It’s quite descriptive a term, mind you. It gets the race pimps themselves vibrating like tuning forks, as its usage lets it be known that they know they’ve been found out. Not that all the cash they’re hauling in doesn’t make them quiet down… it always does.

          • Colonel Mustard

            Why are you, like so many reds, so pompous? Why do your “arguments” always have to denigrate those who dissent and to assert your supposed moral and intellectual superiority?

            If you really believe facts are in short supply here and those who dissent from your dogma are intellectually and morally inferior why do you bother? Do you think that your missionary zeal is best served by insulting the natives you have come to enlighten?

            That certainty of belief, that denigration of inferiors reminds me of something. . .

    • HookesLaw

      Zimmerman’s hue is pretty dark.
      Zimmerman was beaten up by Martin and killed in a struggle for the gun.
      Photographic evidence is clear, Zimmerman had been beaten up. So how do you convict?

    • James Strong

      Of course the issue of race intruded; it was brought in by racists like Al Sharpton.
      Initially the competent authorities decided not to bring charges. The charges came weeks later because of the manufactured outrage of racists who think that whites, and the new category of ‘white Hispanic’ are wrong when in confrontation with blacks.
      Thankfully the jury looked at the evidence and were not swayed by the coalition of bigots and bleeding-hearts.

    • Colonel Mustard

      The basis of English law is – was – that guilt must be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Any reasonable doubt should mean acquittal. It is not reasonable doubt about innocence but reasonable doubt about guilt. The distinction is important. And it ought to be “blind” to matters of race.

      We do not yet have guilt proven as a result of “what seems to be” in terms of morality, especially left-wing morality. We also do not have guilt proven in terms of left-wing labelling of “good” and “bad” groups, e.g. someone from a “good” group must always be innocent and someone from a “bad” group must always be guilty.

      Although we seem to be getting there as the sentiment in your comment demonstrates. The sub-text of that is the undermining of the rule of law and the creation of kangaroo courts.

  • emiller7

    If Zimmerman was found not guilty by a jury of his peers, then he is not guilty! Such is the law!

  • Andy

    The Law requires more than Left-wing bigotry and hate. It requires facts. I did not sit and hear the evidence in this case; I merely read the reports in the press. However from those reports I doubt there were enough ‘facts’ to maintain a conviction for Murder.

  • the viceroy’s gin

    I’d like to know, what kind of public policy madness is it that schedules a controversial trial and verdict for the hot Summer months? The shooting in question took place back in early 2012, so it easily could have been adjudicated in Winter and cold months, sometime over the past 18 months or so, when the likelihood of violent street backlash could have been reduced.

  • Austin Barry

    White liberal guilt is not reciprocated by the people whom it favours, and will continue to be the slow but steady death of our way of life.

    • tele_machus

      When I was at school I was taught that Britain was the best country in the world and the implication was that “we” were superior to all other people

      We even in our school assembly had a once a year visit from someone talking about a “mission to the Jews”

      We common talked about ni**ers and coolies

      Our empire was in the throes of dying and the Telegraph lambasted Macmillan for standing in the South African Parliament and talking about the winds of change

      Since then we have moved into a US style melting pot situation and begun to live and look outward again

      Our multifaith multi-ethnic multicultural society has become a force for dynamic change and is ushering in a new era of greatness

      • Wilhelm

        My uncle worked on the P & O Line, when Britain still built ships and had an Empire, he went all over the world, he said to me once, when the white man walked down the street, the ethnics got out of the way and walked on the other side of the pavement.

        And that’s how it should be.

        • tele_machus

          I guess you encapsulate the whole problem in that short rant

          • Colonel Mustard

            No, you do in your rather longer one.

          • telemackus

            We agree.

      • Colonel Mustard

        Ah yes, that grand “US style melting pot situation”. Is that what the lefties aspired to when they began their secretive policy of mass, uncontrolled immigration to “rub the right’s nose in diversity”?

        Were the indigenous English ever asked if they wanted to be part of a “US style melting pot situation”? I guess not. In the same way as when America was colonised the native American tribes were not asked. You, in your narrow, bigoted, judgemental, utterly repulsive way would probably call those tribes “little americans” for any shred of desire for cultural survival, identity and self determination.

        And is this “US style melting pot situation” free from sectarian strife, racial tensions? You people of the left are aiming to colonise England to become Utopia – I presume that in using that “US style melting pot situation” as the model for our future you have considered the cons as well as the pros? No, of course not because your whole creed is based on intentions rather than consequences. It is just the rosy aspiration of the Soviet propaganda poster which the bogus words in your rather disgusting comment emulate.

        • tele_machus

          Most of the Right I know have retrenched into Eurosceptic Islamophobic little englandism

          I remember when Cameron first stood in the Commons opposite revisionist Tony Blair and said “You were the future once”

          Life moves on

          We recommend you adopt a progressive agenda

          • Colonel Mustard

            It’s not all about you though.

          • telemackus

            The future is Ed Balls and sharia and I look forward to the glorious day in 2015 when we can usher in 1000 years of socialist paradise.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              Heh. I’d pay to see that slogan campaigned…

              “Ed Balls for 1000 years of socialist paradise!”

          • DrCoxon


          • Drakken

            No thanks! Your progressive agenda is about to meet the law of unintended consequences, called extreme backlash that will make a Serb blush.

        • Wilhelm

          How Whites took over America using Multiculturalism

      • Baron

        telemachus’ stab at the kind of stuff the ruling elite will say over and over again when the regime of the followers f Marx, or Marx’s spawned mutations, finally takes over for good: ” Our multifaith multi-ethnic multicultural society has become a force for dynamic change and is ushering in a new era of greatness.’

        Before that happens, telemachus, tell Baron why didn’t the rainbow set-up work for the Balkans, why not for the great USSR? Surely not because these were mostly Slavonic tribes force feeding the experiment on smaller ethnicities, that would be a racist angle, wouldn’t it? Also, why are the Scots so restless, an ethnicity as close to that of the English as it gets?

        Wherever one looks the ground movement seems to be towards greater fragmentation along ethnic,’tribal’ lines. So far here, the ‘era of greatness’ you dream of seems to be disappearing over the horizon rather than moving closer to now.

        • telemachus

          Look Baron your examples are bogus and not relevant
          Our greatness is based on the fact that we are a mongrel nation and our last era of greatness was ushered in by migrations from the low countries and North Germany, subsequently Scandinavia and Brittany and then Germany again
          We now have the whole communituy of tribes and nations to spur on the new era of greatness

          • telemackus

            We are all mongrels now and our leader, Ed Balls, will finish the work started by the great Gordon Brown to rid these isles of Cameron and Osbourne and all the tory voting toffs that have sold off our hospitals and schools to the Russian mafia.

            • kyalami

              Which Ed Balls are you talking about? I only know of one and he’s not, as far as I know, the leader of anything significant. However, your “Great Leader” honorific does sound quite North Korean, which is appropriate.

            • Nicholas K

              Thisis quite simply beyond satire. Labour HQ should follow its own advice to stop work when the temperature reaches 30 degrees C.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …the mack-daddy version of telemucus is the best one, I think.

            • Erictheowl

              ‘Scuse me, but are you some sort of ironic comedian, or do you just have a “thing” about Ed Balls?

          • Colonel Mustard

            It is ridiculous to compare what happened here ten centuries ago and largely by the sword with Labour’s modern non-consensual programme of deliberate ethnic cleansing. It is offensive to deploy the term “mongrel nation” as a justification for that cleansing when the English have had a distinct culture and national identity for more than ten centuries. They have a right to it still and do not need the permission of you or the Labour party to express it.

            It is even more offensive to suggest that without this ethnic cleansing the English are incapable of greatness. Throughout history the English have embraced and absorbed migrant communities without losing their English identity and without being told they are suddenly a multi-ethnic and multi-cultural “melting pot”. This issue only arose after the Labour party connived in a programme of deliberately de-stabilising mass immigration intended to undermine and destroy that identity. That programme, during the years 1997-2010, is unprecedented in our history and no amount of puerile eyewash from you is going to change that fact.

            You should accept the fact that in our English democracy people are entitled to hold views different from yours and do not need to be insulted for them by you. You should show more respect for such political pluralism and diversity since diversity is one of the sacred cows of the party you advocate. As a “caring” person you should be more sensitive to the offence you are giving. You do not control England or the English and your views on their future carry no more weight than any others. So it is preferable that you wind your neck in.

            I found it rather amusing that you should accuse Baron’s examples of being “bogus” since the “arguments” in almost all your comments here are invariably bogus and made only with provocative or party political intent.

            • tele_machus

              We changed dramatically as a result of the invasions, most radically by the Normans. Our whole societal structure became outward looking and after further German migrations we created the situation that has made my laguage the language of the world with untold benefits
              The retrenchment after WW2 into little englandism was painful to my soul and I am pleased we are moving on

              • Colonel Mustard

                This is dissembling and you have ignored both my challenge and The_greyhound’s valid interjection on our identity.

                “little englandism” is an offensive pejorative that has no relevance to the subject of English national identity in post New Labour devolved Britain or indeed our relationship with Europe. The term arose in the days of Empire but in this era of globalised trade it is meaningless. The willingness to interact successfully as a independent nation on a global basis is not dependent on our subordination to the EU bureaucracy or your self-destructive views about immigration. Your linking of those is entirely bogus.

                In the twilight before the potential dawn of an independent Scotland the national identity of the English becomes especially significant. You simply cannot dismiss those stirrings and concerns of identity as “little englandism”, especially as it was your party that promoted nationalist celebration and self-determination for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

                It appears that you cannot hold an argument without stereotyping and abusing those who disagree with your extremist views. You probably do this because you believe it will rob them of legitimacy. It doesn’t and the tendency contradicts your very own creed.

                I am glad however that you have admitted that the recent Labour policy for England to “change dramatically” can be likened to former armed invasions and was a non-consensual imposition on an indigenous people with the right to their own identity and self-determination by a government that so hates its own people that it became, effectively, an occupying foreign power.

              • telemackus

                Like you I am pleased that labour have created a new multifaith multi-ethnic multicultural society fit for a 1000 years of socialist rule under the charismatic Ed Balls. You and I will both welcome sharia when it become the law of the land and the white tories are eliminated in Andy Burnhams NHS.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Is Ed going to live for those thousand years? We should be told.

                • Treebrain

                  Ed Balls, the grandson of a traitor and illegal immigrant, is a typical member of ‘the political class’ and will never again be a minister in the UK.

                • hasbara

                  What I find interesting is that your major supporter is a dalek.

                • Treebrain


                  What I find interesting is that you do not address the point I raised, that the Auschwitz plaque that stated 4.2 million people died was replaced by another after the research of Dr. F. Pipek that stated only 1.1 million people died at Auschwitz.

                  ‘Never again’ cry those employed by ‘The Holocaust Industry’ but they bitterly resent the real facts being made public.

                  What DOES the ‘Holocaust Educational Trust’ have to do to tell the truth about the number of Auschwitz victims?

                  Why does the HET not mention the new plaque?

                • Drakken

                  You will have a Balkans on steroids before that happens, much to your chagrin and horror as you are brought to the gallows for your traitorous actions.

          • The_greyhound

            The mongrel nation thing is a bare-faced lie, invented for effect, and promoted by multi-cultural retards.

            The modern indigenous British population overwhelming derives from the farming population of the neolithic period. The small numbers that arrived from Europe between the First and the Eighteenth centuries A.D. were of similar ethnicity and related culture to the local population.

            More recent arrivals are not, and none have been assimilated.

        • Treebrain

          Baron, remember that the word ‘slave’ is derived from the word ‘slav’?

          Which race/ethnic group/community have been most active in the slave trade for over a thousand years?

          Which group were active in the ‘white slave trade’ for centuries?

          Have a look at the history of slavery in Latin America?

          • ganef_returns

            Woodentop, the expert on everything.

            • Treebrain


              I have never claimed to be an ‘expert’ on anything but I have made people aware of issues and concepts that you would prefer were not made public, have I not?

              The role of Jews in the ‘white’ slave trade is indeed something you would prefer not to be made public, just as you resist any mention any discussion of Jews with regard to organ trafficking or child genital mutilation or the slow agonising death of animals as a result of the ritual slaughter that produces ‘kosher’ meat.

              • ganef_returns

                “The role of Jews in the ‘white’ slave trade is…. ”
                …. minimal and has nothing to do with this posting, anti-Semite.

                • Treebrain

                  Thank you ganef!

                  Once again you provide a platform for discussion, in this instance the role of Jews in the white slave trade.

                  There is nothing anti-Semitic about discussing how Jewish men preyed on poor Jewish women in Eastern Europe and sold them into a life of sexual servitude in Latin America.

                  Try and learn something about Jewish history and look into the organisation ‘Zwi Migdal’?

                  Once again I am publicly educating you about Jewish history, and hopefully you are better informed?

                • ganef_returns

                  “What has this posting got to do with the Zimmerman case?

              • Drakken

                The white slave trade involves muslims, not jews, so thanks for playing hadji.

                • Treebrain


                  Once again you stun us all with your absolute ignorance of the mater under discussion!

                  Are you not aware of the origins of the word ‘slave’?

                  Here is a clue, it is derived from the word ‘slav’!

                  Muslims were not involved in ‘the white slave trade’ that saw Jews ship women from Eastern Europe to a life of sexual slavery in Latin America.

                  You might start by reading;

                  “The Jewish White Slave Trade and the Untold Story of Raquel Liberman” by Nora Glickman to learn about the topic.

          • jeff B

            lynching blacks was common in America so it’s ok to do it now as long as others did it before us

            • Treebrain

              jeff B,

              Would you care to explain the train of thought or logic in your comment?

              Slavery was an accepted condition in hte Bible but nobody is suggesting that slavery would be acceptable today.

              It was the British that led the campaign to abolish the slave trade long before the US accepted thyat slavery was not acceptable.

              As for lynching blacks in the US, the murder by Zimmerman shows that it is still possible to kill black male children and get away with it in the US, does it not?

              • Drakken

                The fact that blacks kill more whites than vise versa in the US is the rule not the exception.

                • Treebrain

                  Any verifiable figures to support your assertion, or shall we add racism to genocide and ethnic cleansing to you POV Drakken?

                • Drakken

                  It’s called the FBI stats muslim. So I guess they are wrong as well? Sorry Sparky you muslims have overused and abused the race and bigot card to the point it has zero meaning and us infidels won’t shut up any longer.

                • Treebrain

                  Why would you think I am a Muslim Drakken?

          • thanksdellingpole

            He wouldn’t know the answer to that.

            • Treebrain

              Even if he did he would not like to answer?

              On another thread at The Daily Telegraph people seem unaware that the memorial plaque at Auschwitz was amended over a decade ago to show that the 4.2 million purported victims was actually a gross exaggeration and only 1.1 million died there.

              For some reason the Holocaust Educational Trust NEVER, EVER, mention this fact?

              Now, why do we think that would be?

              • ganef_returns

                What has this posting got to do with the Zimmerman case?

                • Treebrain


                  Do make an effort and try to follow the thread of the conversation!

                • ganef_returns

                  You mean the thread of your conversation. Nothing to do with Zimmerman. Curious time of posting, 3.00am UK time.

              • Drakken

                You do realize that there were more concentration camps besides Auschwitz right? I have to hand it to those plucky Jews in Israel, everytime these stick it to you muslims it drives you bloody savages into a frothing frenzy.

                • Treebrain


                  Yes indeed there were indeed other concentration camps but their victims were included in the estimated total of six million victims of the Holocaust.

                  It was only later that the detailed research of Dr. F. Piper regarding Auschwitz led to the number of Auschwitz victims to be revised down from 4.2 million to 1.1 million, and the memorial plaque amended accordingly.

                  Now you do math Drakken, six minus 3.1 equals….?

          • Drakken

            The muslims have and still have the greatest impact on slavery sparky.

      • telemackus

        Soon, under the charismatic Ed Balls England will regain its rightful place as the worlds melting pot and we can rid ourselves of the horrible white tories for ever. I, like you, look forward to the day when no more white people can vote in London and we can have true sharia law.

      • Treebrain

        tele_ machus,

        The UK is nothing like the US and certainly not with regard to Jews or ni**ers.

        Census results show that there are less than 250,000 Jews in a population of more than sixty million in the UK, less than one half of one per cent of the population. given the way that Jews are ‘marrying out’, within two generations the Jewish population of the UK will be too small to measure.

        Afro-Caribbean British subjects face the same fate because black men refuse to have relationships with black women, preferring white partners. As a result, the ‘black’ population of the UK will effectively disappear within two generations.

        As political correctness turns full circle it will be used to stop kosher and halal slaughter of animals and the female genital mutilation of certain groups in the UK and also to prevent the male genital mutilation known as circumcision so beloved by the Jewish and Muslim communities, but utterly alien to the English host community where these minorities exist.

        As these ‘multicultural’ values are rejected socially and legally, interesting times lay ahead in the UK!

        • ganef_returns


          • Treebrain


            Of course I am an idiot because I have a different point of view?

            I pointed out that in the UK the ‘Holocaust Educational Trust’ arrange visits to Auschwitz but fail to discuss the point that the plaque that once said that 4.2 million victims died in the camp has been amended after the research by Dr. Francis Pipek showed that only 1.1 million people died in the camp.

            Thank you for providing a platform to discuss this issue.

            • ganef_returns

              What has Auschwitz to do with the subject matter, anti-Semite?

              • Treebrain

                Answer your own question ganef?

                Did six million Jews REALLY perish during the ‘Holocaust’ if actually the 4.2 million victims of Auschwitz were exaggerated and only 1.1 million died there?

                This means that the supposed six million victims can only have been less than three million.

                Well done ganef, you have just exposed the fiction of six million Jews as victims of the ‘Holocaust’, does that make you a Holocaust denier?

                • ganef_returns

                  You are a total crackpot. I did not raise the issue of Auschwitz, you did. Nor have I discussed Auschwitz and do not intend to do so with a total lunatic such as you. And I wouldn’t use the word Holocaust, I use the Hebrew Shoah.

                  Crawl back into your hole.

                • ganef_returns

                  You really are a half-wit, or is that being generous? The Holocaust has nothing to do with this story. Zimmerman is NOT a Jew, whatever you wish to believe.

                  And you cannot even be bothered to read what is posted at you because you want to believe what Jewwatch and Stormfront feed you. You sit all day on your computer churning out material on a very wide range of subjects in which you are an “expert”. And if anyone chooses to shoot you down, you always have a reason why you are right.

                  I invited you to visit Yad Vashem in Jerusalem and se the names of the 5 million plus, (and counting) of the dead ALL supported by written testimony or, even, to look it up on the YV website.

                  You ask “how do I know you have never visited Israel”. It is patently obvious from your postings. I doubt you seldom leave your single-person bed-sit other than to impart your extremist views to others.

                  You claimed the Chief Rabbi is a racist without any evidence, because there isn’t any. Well, at his recent retirement dinner, the next king of England spoke glowingly of him, in person, and others such as three Archbishops of Canterbury, the Archbishop of Westminster (a Catholic) and four Prime Ministers all praised him as well.

                  I think it not unsurprising that many of “my supporters” have given up because it is plainly obvious from the votes what the Spectator readers think of you and me. I have better things to do with my time. Clearly you don’t and I have some pity for your miserable life. But I am linked to your postings and will comment as and when I see fit.

      • telemackus

        This new multifaith multi-ethnic multicultural society started by Tony Blair but finished by the great Gordon Brown and our charismatic leader-in-waiting Ed Balls will deliver a 1000 years of socialist rule in 2015. Aided by Andy Burnham as Health Minister, horrible white tories will become extinct and we will have a new rule of labour and sharia.

      • Thursdaythe12th

        “Our multifaith multi-ethnic multicultural society has become a force for dynamic change”

        Like a tornado?

      • Tom Tom

        “We common talked about ni**ers and coolies” So what, even today we are told we should take in more Coolies and Slaves to sustain our welfare system. Clearly Slavery is essential to our welfare system and you do not seem to objkect you hypocrite

      • thanksdellingpole

        Total crap.

      • Drakken

        In case you haven’t noticed in your socialistic stupor, but the melting pot is now the boiling pot and we are going to become the Balkans on steroids. Nothing good ever comes from the 3rd world except misery.

  • sardindukurup

    We stand them up against a wall and shoot them.-Lenin .that,s the leftistt rule of law.

  • John Jefferson Burns

    You limeys have to realise that blacks back home are not like your cuddly friendly blacks.
    They include mean dudes who roam our better neighborhoods stealing to feed their drug habit and harassing our womenfolk.
    Terrified does not begin to describe our feelings. Faced with the evidence in a white gated community what other choice did Zimmerman have?

    • anyfool

      That you think the black people in the UK are all cuddly is quite quaint, they are just as vicious as yours, we had a policeman hacked to bits and just recently we had a man decapitated.
      Like in the US the people who are terrified of black violence is the law abiding black people, and like in the US we have loads of middle class white people making excuses for them, they unlike the poor black people do not live among them.

      • Drakken

        That is why we have the 2nd Amendment.

    • Nick

      Cuddly?Friendly? There are many black people here in the UK who are as dangerous as they are in the US.Equally,there are white people over here who are as dangerous as those in the US.
      Another problem that we seem to share with you folks in the USA are the bleeding heart,hand wringing sanctimonious left wings nutjobs.
      But we’re more worried about the muslim killers and lunatics that are protected and loved by our government and left wing nutters.

    • Wilhelm

      ”cuddly and friendly.”

      You mean like the black man who butchered the British soldier in London ?

      • James Strong

        You are bringing in an irrelevant point and leaving out the important point.
        The killer of Lee Rigby did not do it because of his race. He did it because he is an adherent of the Religion of Peace and truly believes in its teachings.

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