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The Britain in Europe crowd were wrong then, so why should they be right now?

12 January 2013

Ed Miliband’s speech to the Fabians is being rather over-shadowed today by Lord Heseltine’s attack on David Cameron’s EU policy; the political media like nothing more than a ‘Tories split on Europe’ story. I suspect, though, that Labour won’t mind this too much. Heseltine’s criticisms make the Tories look divided and allow Labour to claim that even Cameron’s own growth adviser thinks his Europe policy is wrong.

Of course, there is nothing surprising about Heseltine’s criticisms: he is an ideological pro-European. He wanted Britain to join the euro, something that would have been a total disaster for this country, and even now believes that we will join the euro one-day.

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Eurosceptics need to get organised and start pointing out that the people claiming that renegotiation will lead to the sky falling in are, by and large, the same people who were pushing for Britain to join the single currency. If this message is rammed home to the public, then it should be a lot easier to persuade them to take these warnings with a pinch of salt.

The Britain in Europe crowd was wrong on the most fundamental public policy issue of our time. They need to be reminded of this fact every time they enter the Europe debate.

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  • Its_not_craig

    Really Mr Forsyth.
    Could you be any more transparent with your sad little agenda?
    All these days and weeks spent todaying up to Cameron’s awful little tribe come down to this don’t they:
    “If I support Daddy Cameron in my every utterance then he’s sure to take us out of that Beastly EU”

  • Bob339

    We can surely renegotiate to be allowed to protect our borders from Roma rubbish. If not look out in 2014. It will not be safe to go out. Two milliion gypsies claiming benefit will
    cause the treasury to wheeze a bit.

    • Colonel Mustard

      I think it will be more than the Treasury that wheezes a bit. That prospect is likely to change the face of England forever and effectively “Balkanise” it.

  • michael

    Business requires us to remain part of the EU purely for commercial tax avoidance, and the tax haven lifestyles of its executives (they are the ones with the loudest voices). Total trade with our would be continental countrymen, on which incidentally, we lose £5bn pa, only represents 10% of our economy.

    I’m sure the Europeans can only dream of the capital ‘IN’ flows from England if that economic figure was reaching the 100% from full integration.

    The Americans : In order for New York to become THE worlds financial center, London needs to be tied into the NYSE owned Bourse and DAX. A financial transaction tax really only hits London because Franco German volumes tax sheltering stateside are re-attributable under the NYSE umbrella. London meanwhile, just looses business… Picked up by New York in one form or another.

    American commerce is having a beano thanks to a profit and price edge it enjoys as a result of cosy continental EU tax arrangements. With corporation tax back home stacking up at a whopping 39% the Yanks must be masters at running ‘profit free’ enterprises.
    – Over here, trading within this EU avoidance scam whilst local competitors have to cough, it must seem to American businesses like all of their birthdays have come at once.

    A German agenda : Having reaped the benefits of supply side reform thro’ both bureaucratic and commercial deregulation and the ability of Germany’s seventeen provincial administrations to completely ignore EU rule, the Germans are overwhelmingly competitive. (Notwithstanding our strong car exports we still suffer an £8 bn pa automotive trade deficit because most of our SME component manufacturers cannot compete with Germany.) To maintain this position, it is a must that competing countries remain good capitulant rule abiding EUpeans and ‘nailed on’ as customers
    How does that affect us?…Honda forced to close meanwhile BMW are gratuitously dumping.

    Germany has no minimum wage…so what?
    Well, a reformed Germany’s subsequent economic turn about means that It can afford to maintain virtually free tuition at its universities to all EU citizens… for starters.

    Those people who believe that we can stop being a cash cow to the worlds most voracious ecomomies by remaining shackled to their sponsors in Brussels need to….

  • Whyshouldihavetoregister

    Heseltine doesn’t matter any more. This needs to be borne in mind every time he emits another perfumed fart.

  • Boudicca_Icenii

    “The Britain in Europe crowd was wrong on the most fundamental public policy issue of our time. They need to be reminded of this fact every time they enter the Europe debate. ”
    And we do. But the MSM media – particularly the BBC – likes to wheel them out as though they were the greatest Sages of our time. Every single ‘call’ on the EU they got wrong …. but not once are they every challenged.
    On Friday, Channel 4 News wheeled out Kinnock – who couldn’t even win a General Election here – to propagandise on behalf of the EU without mentioning once that he was required to swear an oath of loyalty to the EU and his EU pension depends on him advancing its cause.
    Landowner Heseltine makes a fortune out of the CAP. Of course he wants the UK in the EU.

  • Jebediah

    Just give us a vote. Then we can put it to bed. But no, they’re scared of their own electorate.

  • Jebediah

    I’ll take a little potential economic downside to get our country back.

  • Wessex Man

    Why has my reply to Rhoda Klapp of three hours ago been removed, it wasn’t offensive, so please this time tell me why? especially reading some of the other posted on this thread!

    • Rhoda Klapp

      We must have them worried.

  • David Lindsay

    Heseltine is the authentic voice of the least Eurosceptical of the three parties. Every Labour MP voted to cut Britain’s contribution to the EU Budget. The number of Conservative votes for that was smaller than the number of Lib Dem MPs.

    But speaking even of the LIb Dems, Simon Hughes, Deputy Leader of the Liberal Democrats, last night informed the Any Questions audience that his party had never been in favour of joining the euro at the given time rather than merely in principle, and that “We are a lot better off with our own currency, thank you very much.” But then, he abstained on Maastricht, while Sir Nick Harvey, as he now is, went so far as to vote against it.

    I am not convinced that most Lib Dems are all that pro-EU at all. I have a strong suspicion that they are more like the characters in Chesterton’s The Man Who Was Thursday. One by one, each of the members of an anarchist cell turns out to be an undercover policeman.

    Vicious campaigners though they undeniably are, there really are Lib Dems, doubtless clear majorities of their members and voters, and probably even of their MPs and Peers, who believe profoundly in the election, appropraite or otherwise, of pretty much everything that exercises any sort of power.

    In absolute openness and freedom of information, prudent or otherwise. In the highest possible degree, sensible or otherwise, of decentralisation and localism. In the heritage of uncompromising opposition to political extremism everywhere from Moscow to Pretoria
    abroad, and from the Communist Party to the Monday Club at home.

    In (unlike me) the tradition of anti-protectionism against everyone from nineteenth-century agricultural Tories to 1970s industrial trade unionists. In the rural Radicalism that has always stood against the pouring of lucre into the pockets of the landlords. And in the interests of the arc of Lib Dem fishing seats from Cornwall via North Norfolk, Berwick, and North East Fife, to the Highlands and Islands of Scotland.

    Mild to strong Eurosceptics, including a goodly number of the latter, probably keep quiet within the Lib Dems because they assume that they are a tiny minority. But I bet that they are not. In fact, I bet that they are not really a minority at all. And now, they have to make
    legislative and executive decisions.

    Ed Davey is in the Cabinet, while the similarly non-Eurofanatical David Heath and Norman Lamb are on the cusp of it, with Alistair Carmichael as the party’s Chief and the Government’s Deputy Chief Whip. Heath, as Deputy Leader of the House, also has an important role in progressing business.

    The Party President, Tim Farron, is very much of the same mind as Simon Hughes, on this as on most other things. David Laws belongs in the same prison as anyone who had stolen that much in Housing Benefit. But the fact remains that he is not.

    And Vince Cable has proposed an industrial strategy wholly incompatible with the Eurofederalist project, as in fact any industrial strategy is; it has only taken the SDP 30 years to catch up with the Labour right-wingers, for want of a better term, whom they left behind.

    Whereas David Cameron is in the pocket of Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine.

    • Wessex Man

      David Lindsay

      I would normally read your post and give a comment but you would only send to sleep.

      • David Lindsay

        Not a native English-speaker, then. Keep working on it, though. You will get there in the end. Best not to write anything in public until then, however.

        • Wessex Man

          that be roight, Oim a West Country lad. I’m probably as well educated as you David Lindsay but I don’t live in a fantasy world like you where you actually think your long pompous self important ramblings are in any way interesting zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  • MichtyMe

    Hesiltine is right, we will have the Euro here one day, at some point events will compel joining, it may be many years but it will happen.

    • Rhoda Klapp

      By here you mean Scotland?

  • Noa

    “…Eurosceptics need to get organised and start pointing out that the people claiming that renegotiation will lead to the sky falling in are, by and large, the same people who were pushing for Britain to join the single currency.”

    Yes they are Fantasists all.

    And how many times must people tell you that Cameron’s ‘renegotiation’ is a toothless chimera? It’s weak, it can’t happen without all 26 nations agreeing. That neither Cameron or you never mention this, or Article 50, demeans your work and is an insult to our intelligence that will serve him ill.

    • Dimoto

      You just can’t get it through your thick head that “Eurosceptic” covers a whole range of opinion, can you ?
      The British way, the Conservative way, is pragmatism – see what we can work out, see what deals we can cut, stay away from the extremist federasts and the extremist refusniks, look for opt-outs.
      The UN is useless, the WTO is ponderous and ineffective, the IMF is infected with French enarques, NATO has a bunch of malingerers who won’t pull their weight, the Commonwealth is full of corrupt governments …. I know, let’s leave the lot, pick up our bat and ball, and go home for a nice glass of milk and a biscuit.

      • Noa

        And what happens when the much vaunted ‘negotiations’, deliver nothing of worth three years down the road? Do you expect a a resounding ‘Non!’ to leaving the EU?
        Actually, you probably do.

  • Radford_NG

    3.45pm 12 Jan……I’d refer readers to the group that has recently advertized in the Spectator,and put a campaign insert in subscriber editions.This can be found at (the dot eu is crucial,otherwise you get Ukip).It’s lead by Nikki Sinlaire MEP,West Midlands,who is head and shoulders above the rest:she’s a big girl.They intend to run candidates in the 2014 euro-elections under the rubric:We Demand a Referendum Party.This may well attract voters who want `Out`but don’t want to support Ukip or other political parties.

    • martin_lowe

      Is that Nikki Sinclair the expenses fiddler?

      • David Lindsay

        One quarter of UKIP MEPs. One in four.

      • Radford_NG

        No,she is the one arrested a year ago on trumped-up complaints from an associate of Ukip.

  • Andy

    Heseltine is a bit like a Bourbon: ‘Forgotten Everything, and learnt Nothing’.

    I read the article in The Times. Almost made me choke on my coffee. Nowhere did he concede that in a democracy you have to persuade the people you are right. You can’t just bloody tell ’em.

  • RKing

    I think the very people who are spreading all this propaganda gives us a clue as to their motives.
    We are told that the EU is the biggest trading nation in the world BUT we have a trade deficit with them.
    Now how many of these “supporters” of the EU have a vested interest in foreign companies who seemingly make a profit out of EU trade with the UK?
    Hands up gentlemen!!
    We, as a country, make a loss on this trade and who picks up the bill for this loss?
    We the british taxpayer!!
    So could one be correct in thinking that the british taxpayer is subsidising the profits of these “patriotics”?
    I know it sounds all a bit convoluted but who would want to be a member of any club that was draining vast sums from us?
    One solution of course would be for these profiteers to offer to settle the trading loss which “we” have to subsidise.

    No I didn’t think they would!!!

    • 2trueblue

      The big lie is that 55% of our exports are to the EU. Not true. And yet it gets parroted out continually. We also have the lie about the number of people employed because of our trade with the EU. These figures need to be clarified and substantiated, we need proof and clarification. 50% of our exports go to Rotterdam and form there go to the rest of the world as well as the EU.

  • paulus

    There mouths are stuffed with euro gold, and lies pore forth to sell their own country, they are vermin, they are lower than rapists and murderers.

    They have no rational argument to offer, no economic, or political, so they enlist the feeble minded to proffer threats without force, dangers that are an illusion, benefits that are a trap.

    Doesnt that idiotic yank realise that if the world is segmented into regions Europe and America itself will fall by the way side, the centre of the world is shifting east wards, No wonder the world is in such a mess with these idiots offering an analysis based upon fantasy.

  • ben corde

    WE’LL decide who governs us, not Westminster, Heseltine, Branson, Honda and other Big Business, The US, or the EU, We the electorate will decide in a referendum if enough of us vote UKIP. It’s the principle that matters. Are we a free and democratic nation or not?

  • Russell

    I hope every voter remembers exactly what Labour did during their 13 years in government. Miliband and his pathetic repetitive ‘One Nation’ speech should be put in context with doubling Income Tax on the lowest paid with their removal of the 10 pence rate whilst awarding knighthoods and Lordships on senior Bankers. His pathetic utterings about responsibility whilst leaving in place Ministers and Senior public servants who should have been put in jail for their incompetence.
    And what exactly is Labours position on the EU? not a murmur.Miliband says Labour will introduce compulsory employment for the lonf term unemployed! FFS which private companies will employ these people? Looks like 230,000 more public sector workers, costing the taxpayer a lot more than unemployment pay.

    • Colonel Mustard

      His scaremongering words about landlords and rent will probably make things worse for renters too as landlords seek to dispose of property and/or tenants ahead of any new legislation or try to make as money as possible. Way to go gonk man!

      I don’t believe New Labour was “far too timid” in enforcing rights and responsibilities either. They seemed ever ready to advance the rights of big government by coercive bullying whilst increasing the responsibilities of ordinary people to tow the line they decided upon.

      • Ron Todd

        Typical socialist demonise landlords with no acknowledgement that landlords also need protection from bad tenants.

  • Rhoda Klapp

    Just watched the back end of a discussion about this on BBC 24. Gavin Esler chairing, I think. Trouble is that there was no articulate eurosceptic involved. The participants ll seem to have made their minds up already. Oh, there were different views, but the most amazing lies went unchallenged. And there is the eurosceptic problem. They can’t get on the TV. Intentionally the BBC excludes anybody who can make the case for anything the Beeb doesn’t like. And no, I don’t mean Farage, He is OK at the demagoguery but does not represent the kind of articulate argument I want to see.

    • Colonel Mustard

      Thus for climate change and thus for immigration. It is governed, like Europe, by a one-sided presumption where any dissidents are marginalised, not given a proper voice in debate and/or demonised as ‘phobes, denialists, sceptics, etc.

      • Sharon Klaff

        Thus for the MiddleEast

        • Span Ows

          Thus for the Obamessaiah…

    • dalai guevara

      Well, has it occured to you that perhaps apart from the demagogue and his cronies, there is no other anti-EU voice of merit? Note my wording – anti-EU, not eurosceptic.

      • Colonel Mustard

        That would only be valid if there were a pro-EU voice of merit – which was the original point being made! Not only has the case for membership been singularly unimpressive, relying on status quo presumptions, subterfuge and dodgy statistics, but the very fact that so many of us were forced to become citizens of the EU without consent invalidates the question of merit in the counter argument completely. Slaves do not need to show merit in the expression of their desire for freedom.

        • dalai guevara

          Are you going all the way then by questioning the validity of our political discourse? In case you haven’t noticed, there is no political party in Parliament that opposes EU membership…

          • Rhoda Klapp

            So how are we going to vote for it?. This is precisely the point, there are a few issues in which the views of the electorate, or at least a substantial portion of it, never appear in a main party manifesto and are not part of political discourse as defined by the agenda-setters on the today programme or even here in barclay-land. Nothing new about it, you will find it all in a BBC handbook written by an ex-employee as far back as 1948:

            Don’t give them language to even express a wrong thought.

            Monitor them all the time.

            Set up a fake resistance group to soak up protest.

            Control the news

            Control history

            • dalai guevara

              The two party system has reached its limits. Right down to the detail of the House of Commons seating arrangements, it is clear that this wiff waff type of debating does not produce the best outcomes.

              • Dimoto

                OK, oh wise one, so which alternative system does better ?
                (please don’t say the US congress).

                • dalai guevara

                  I will leave the details to the committees, but a nation that ignores 25%+ of its electorate (as they have no means of getting representation in Parliament) is a nation that needs to rethink the principles of democratic representation. I guess you understand where I am heading with this.

          • Colonel Mustard

            Not strictly true since it could also be said there there is no political party in parliament that supports EU membership. That is really the issue. That the status quo arrived at has never been tested. It has evolved, arguably with a great lack of public debate and government accountability. What is true is that there are many members of all political parties and a majority of the public who are uncomfortable about EU membership and the “debate” about that is not helped by the temptations of the EU gravy train which impugns the honesty of so many of its advocates.

            • dalai guevara

              The point I am making is : there is no proper EU debate possible in Parliament, as there is no opposing party elected to Parliament to make that point. This and other important debates should be held in Parliament, not TV not the press. Our current system of representation does not allow for this to happen. It blatantly discredits the importance and relevance of the house, and I call this a serious issue.

              PS: of course it is true that ALL parties in Parliament support the EU. Actively.

      • Rhoda Klapp

        I’m sure Booker or North would go on the telly if asked and are both well-informed about the EU. They aren’t really eurosceptic. They wrote a book about the EU, and the BBC knows very well where to find them if it cared to. It does not care to.

        • 2trueblue

          As you point out ‘if asked’. In the build up to the financial crisis it was interesting who the BBC did not invite to give their viewpoint.

      • George Anderton

        I rather fancy a certain Lord Tebbit would qualify as a voice of merit. He most surely would by my reckoning.

        • David Lindsay

          Someone could ask him why he supported the Treaty of Rome and the Single European Act.

          Oh, and the Anglo-Irish Agreement, while he’s there.

      • David Lindsay

        One third of the Parliamentary Labour Party voted for it to be chaired by the outright withdrawal advocate John Cryer. But they would never ask him.

        Nor would they ever ask John Hendy QC. Who? Well, there you are, then.

      • 2trueblue

        Has it occured to you that the BBC really is institutionally biased? The fact that something gets parroted continually on the BBC does not make it fact, it is an opinion, a view, but certainly not a certainty.

    • Dimoto

      If Esler was involved, it was probably designed to be a snooze fest.

    • 2trueblue

      Interesting that the BBC is so biased and yet nothing is done about it. What we need is freedom for us, who after all own it, to have all our views represented.

  • MirthaTidville

    Heseltine is and always was deluded…He became a busted flush when he threw his toys out of the cot and flounced out of the cabinet. Apart from mischief making journos very few real people take any heed of what he has to say.

    • David Lindsay

      Heseltine is for all practical purposes a member of this Government, complete with a desk in his old Department at which he presents himself on most working days. Can anything remotely similar be said of, say, John Redwood?

      There were demonstrably fewer Eurosceptical Tory MPs than there were Lib Dems MPs as soon as they were invited to vote on a practical measure.

      And this very afternoon, up-and-coming Conservative MPs were on Radio Four
      to talk about “the silent majority” within the Conservative Party that thinks that Michael Heseltine is just super.

      The Big Two parties are back where they were 20 years ago, with the Labour sceptics not quite at the very top but in close contact with it and with sympathisers very highly-placed, and with the Tory sceptics cast into outer darkness by Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine.

    • Fergus Pickering

      I would say nobody> How old is he? And learned no wisdom at all. Is it true that he is dyslexic. Not that it invalidates any argument, I just wanted to know.

    • Radford_NG

      This was over rejection of his project to sell Westland Helicopters plc to Col.Qudaffi of Libya….an Italian company part owned by him.

  • Rhoda Klapp

    James, all is forgiven.

  • abystander

    Vote yes in the Scottish independence referendum. The parrots are in charge of the petshop in London.
    Business wrong, Yanks wrong, Germans wrong , everyone out of step except their Nigel.

    • Rhoda Klapp

      Seems like it is the English who need a referendum. The ones who put England’s interests first. Foreigners or businessmen all have their own agenda first, which is perfectly understandable but no reason to think it is best for the UK or England..This is not an economic question, and those who frame it so are already engaging in deception. It is a question of freedom and democracy. Anybody who understands why Westminster (not England) doesn’t do right by Scotland ought to realise that Brussels doesn’t do right by any of us..

      • Wessex Man

        I’m gonna try again, yes we English do need a referendum, just like the Scots dominated cabinet in 1997/98 forced through the referendum for a Scottish Parliament. The self same Scots who had signed the Scottish Claim of Right, in which they swore to put Scottish interests above all others. These people included Gordon Brown and all other Scottish Labour MPs.

      • dalai guevara

        The English never had their interests represented, not then when Parliament was first set up to legitimise increased taxation, not today when supposedly clear cut majorities cannot debate in Parliament, simply because they do not sit in Parliament.

        British Parliament was never about the democracy of the people, it was and is about the democracy of business interest. If you are calling for change, do you have any idea of what you are letting yourself in for?

        • Colonel Mustard

          That is 100% Grade A codswallop of the most pernicious kind and shows a staggering degree of ignorance about the history of parliament. You don’t edit Wiki do you? It might explain a lot.

          • dalai guevara

            Of course it is true that ‘people’ were not represented, especially in the early days. What if you did not own property? It has not even been a hundred years since w o m e n found representation.

            No taxation without representation – a phrase that UKIP should perhaps use to their advantage today?

            • Colonel Mustard

              All those things changed because of parliament not despite it. Don’t swallow that trite left wing revisionist tosh that seeks to compress anything before 1997 into a bottle labelled ‘Bad’ and everything afterwards forced down out throats from a bottle labelled ‘Good’. These are the bad times, believe it.

              • dalai guevara

                I frankly have no idea what you are on about here

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Well I suppose that is one way to have the last word. The dodge and sly suggestion that my comment makes no sense. Not that you’ve used that technique before…

                  Let me remind you that it was you who sought to wrap up our parliamentary history in a couple of rather trite soundbites delivered from a leftish, mythic, victim-centric, “struggle” glamourised, Tolpuddle martyrs, Suffragette, Jarrow march perspective. I was merely countering with the historical fact that most progressive reform emerged from within parliament not outside it.

                • dalai guevara

                  Lovely rant. The historical fact that women got the vote if they had property came from within Parliament? You could not make it up…
                  How very rent seeking, smoke machine loving, we-love-the-market-but-only-if-it-doesn’t-conflict-with-our-interest (Manchester capitalist), let’s privatise monopolies, top down innovation, Black Wednesday was in fact a Golden Wednesday history deniers.

                  Does robbing people in a legalised Ponzi scheme make you are striver or a scrounger?

  • alexsandr

    one could ask ‘what PM’s EU strategy?’ So far seems to be mostly sitting on the fence watching tory support ebb away.

  • Albert Cooper

    Tarzan should remain in the jungle !

  • Líam

    I remain pro-Europe

    I remain pro-euro

    This country will regret its insular, American-centric mindset. We need to be in the EU for the greater good.

    • d knight

      I remain pro-Europe
      I remain-anti Euro and take no delight in the way it is impoverishing Europe, reducing democratic controls and leading inevitably to a pan-Europe financial collapse
      This country will regret the way that a small cabal of people insist on keeping us within the straightjacket of the EU on the basis of a completely mythical ‘influence’ on its policies (if being inside is so vital to our influence how come we have been ignored on virtually every issue of importance?)

      We do not need to be in Europe for the greater good of this country, teh commonwealth, our global trading partners

      We do need to be in the EU for the greater good of France and southern European members

      • Noa

        “We do need to be in the EU for the greater good of France and southern European members.”

        Why on earth does GB need to be in the EU for the good of France et al?

        • d knight

          er, because we bank roll the whole Ponzi scheme

          or hadn’t you noticed?

          i do despair

    • MikeBrighton

      What’s the EU and it’s undemocratic pretentions to form a superstate got to do with the Europe?

      I love Europe but hate the EU.

      • beat_the_bush

        When you can explain adequately why an elected European Parliament, the elected national governments, togethor with the indirectly elected Commission are antidemocratic, I’m sure we will listen to you. Until then, au revoir.

        • Colonel Mustard

          You and your team can be guaranteed to post comments in every thread about the EU and always attack the comments of dissidents. Are you employed to do that by the EU?

          When you can explain adequately why different people continuously post pro-EU comments and attack anti-EU commentators using the same pseudonym “beat_the_bush”, I’m sure we will listen to you. Until then, cheerio.

          • beat_the_bush

            You and your team comment unintellectual, and more to the point, wrong, eurosceptic rubbish on every comment page. Are you Nigel Farage’s gimp? How much does he pay you?


              Colonel Mustard is not a team. None of the real posters here are ‘teams’. But the organised, and not very interesting or intelligent, collectives that post here on behalf of Labour and the LibDems and other extremist groups are not real, and have no intention of contributing to any discussion.

              The Spectator was supposed to be cleaning up the trolls here, but it seems to have used the opportunity to remove conservative bloggers instead.

            • Colonel Mustard

              I think you have just proved my point. Please compare the English in your comment above to the previous comment made by “beat_the_bush” in response to MikeBrighton. It is clear that the first comment was written by a person with a good command of English whilst your comment was not! If they were written by the same person then I’m Herman Van Rompuy!

              I am not a member of UKIP or any other political party and write here as an individual. Instead of resorting to silly abuse, please answer my questions. Why are different people writing comments under the same pseudonym to the same purpose? Are you employed by the EU or some other organisation (and if so which one?) to monitor anti-EU comments and attack their writers?

        • MikeBrighton

          I can’t recall voting for the UK to be part of a European Superstate, for the UK government to essentially be a local council and for some 75% of statue and primary legislation to come from the EU???

          If that’s not undemocratic I’m not sure what is.

          Perhaps you shoud check with the voters of both France and Holland who both voted to reject the EU Constitution in 2005 which was then enacted as part of the Lison Treaty in 2007.

          Also you should check with the voters of Ireland who have rejected a number of EU Treaties and then told to vote again by their EU masters, only get the vote right this time.

          Au Revoir yourself you childish and ill-infomed fool.

          • beat_the_bush

            I cant recall voting for “INSERT GIANT STRAWMAN ARGUMENT HERE.”

            If you are going to make up a fantasy EU where its A SUPER STATE OMFGFHDSHDIDSAHUIREGHGJDBF, I’M A EUROSCEPTIC HYPERVENTOLATING ON MY OWN RAGE AND SPIT, then why not add wizards and dragons too. It’s more fun that way. You giant fantasy nerd.

            • Colonel Mustard

              We had you pegged a few comments ago but thanks for the additional evidence. Watch out for that FOI request!

            • MikeBrighton

              Please go and see a doctor, urgently…

    • Colonel Mustard

      What greater good? Spell it out. It’s a phrase like “benefits” that gets peddled a lot as a presumption without any clear basis of justification.

      I remain pro-England. I think I’m entitled to be and having never been asked whether I want to be a citizen of a European state which exercises sovereignty over my country (as the “British” parliament does) I don’t see why I should be attacked as “odd”, “racist” or any other convenient pejorative.

      When and if the country get a democratic vote on that I’ll be pleased to abide by the majority decision. Until then I’m a hostage to an undemocratic process whether it is good or bad.


        For the greater good is a phrase from Hot Fuzz, where the demonic parish council are willing to kill people ‘for the greater good’. Always a bad sign when such language is used. Socialists have always used it to justify the most appalling violence. We should not doubt that they would be happy to use it again in furtherance of their wicked agenda.

    • Span Ows

      Pro Europe? Are you a troll or was this an honest and simple mistake?

    • Fergus Pickering

      Ah well. It must be so if you say it.

  • Bruce_UK

    The Britain in Europe crowd were not wrong, they were, and are, criminal in their deceit.

    • MikeBrighton

      “Wrong then and wrong now” is the line that we should use.

      The BBC is leading with “Hesentine attacks PM’s EU strategy”, might as well lead with “Shock Horror Grass found to be green”

    • beat_the_bush

      I think you’ve summed up why eurosceptics often get the term “swivel-eyed” attached to them.

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