Coffee House

Briefing: Immigration from Bulgaria and Romania

29 January 2013

What’s changing?

Bulgaria and Romania joined the European Union on 1 January 2007. This gave their citizens the freedom to travel unrestricted within the EU, but countries were allowed to impose transitional controls on their freedom to work for up to seven years. In 2004, when eight other east European countries (the ‘A8′) joined the EU, the Labour government decided not to impose such restrictions, but this time they did. Those controls must be lifted by 1 January 2014.

What are the transitional controls?

At the moment, Bulgarian and Romanian citizens can only come to work in the UK if they have a permit and: they work in the agriculture or food processing sectors — the number of such workers is capped at 21,250 a year and they only have the right to work for up to six months; they have been recruited for a skilled job for which they are qualified and no suitable British candidate can be found; they have a ‘particularly high level of skills and experience'; they are studying in the UK and work part-time for up to 20 hours a week.

How does that compare to other countries’ controls?

Most other EU countries also imposed requirements for work permits, limited to occupations suffering worker shortages. But ten did not: seven of the A8 countries plus Finland, Sweden and Cyprus. Many of those who did impose restrictions — including Ireland, Italy and Denmark — have already lifted them, and others — including Germany, France and the Netherlands — have relaxed them. Spain lifted its controls in 2009, but then reimposed them on Romanians only in 2011. Only two countries have maintained their initial restrictions on Bulgarians and Romanians: the UK and Malta.

How will it affect immigration?

Simply put, we don’t know. Or, in the words of the government’s independent Migration Advisory Committee:

‘All other things being equal, lifting the restrictions would almost certainly have a positive impact on migration inflows to the UK from those countries. At one extreme the effect could be small (with the additional annual inflow being in the hundreds or low thousands, for instance) but it could be significantly higher. It would not be sensible, or helpful to policymakers, for us to attempt to put a precise numerical range around this likely impact.’

As James and Isabel have reported, the government has heeded this advice. As Isabel’s Home Office source said:

‘There are no Home Office figures in terms of a projection of the numbers because there’s not really very much point in guess work about this because it really is just guess work.’

But that hasn’t stopped others from having a go. In December, Conservative MP Philip Hollobone said:

‘we can expect three times more Romanians and Bulgarians than are currently resident in this country, an increase of some one third of a million over present levels, possibly within two years.’

This is a very dubious claim, assuming that since the number of A8 citizens in the UK (1.1m) is about 1.5 per cent of the total population of those countries (22.8m), the number of Romanians and Bulgarians in the UK will also rise to 1.5 per cent of their populations (28m). On Hollobone’s maths, the increase would be about 270,000, which he rounds up to a third of a million. Where he gets the ‘possibly within two years’ from is a mystery — it has taken eight years for those 1.1m A8 citizens to arrive.

Meanwhile, Migration Watch has come up with a lower guesstimate:

‘Our view is that [Romanian and Bulgarian migrants] are likely to add between 30 and 70,000 to our population in each of the next five years of which about half will appear in the immigration statistics. So our central estimate is 50,000 a year or 250,000 in five years.’

But it should be stressed that this is just — as the Home Office would say — guess work, based largely on an assumption that current rates ‘could double or even treble’.


What happened with the A8?

  • Net migration from the A8 countries averaged 49,000 a year from 2004 to 2011.
  • On average, more than 200,000 National Insurance numbers have been issued to A8 citizens every year, for a total of 1.7 million since they joined the EU (1 million of them to Polish nationals). In 2003, just 17,000 were issued to workers from those countries.
  • The number of A8 nationals living in the UK has risen from 125,000 in 2004 to 1,038,000 in 2011 — an increase of 913,000 (730 per cent). Two thirds of the increase is accounted for by Polish nationals, whose number rose from 69,000 to 687,000.
  • The number of A8 nationals working in the UK has risen from 52,000 in 2004 Q1 to 658,000 in 2012 Q3 — an increase of 606,000 (1165 per cent).

So will Romanians and Bulgarians move here at similar rates from the start of next year? There are some reasons to think so, but also some to suspect that the numbers will be considerably smaller. Here are a few of factors that might influence them:


At 21.4 million, Romania’s population is a little over half of Poland’s, and double those of Hungary and the Czech Republic. Bulgaria’s population is 7.3 million, smaller than Hungary and the Czech Republic but larger than Slovakia. The two countries’ combined population is therefore 27.8 million – 39 per cent of the total population of the A8 in 2004 (73.0 million).



Bulgaria and Romania are the poorest countries in the EU. Romania’s GDP per capita (based on purchasing-power-parity, so accounting for differing costs of living) is just £9,046 – 36 per cent of the UK’s. Bulgaria’s is £9,972, or 39 per cent. By comparison, in 2004 Poland’s was 42 per cent and Latvia’s 38 per cent of the UK’s.



When Poland joined the EU in May 2004, its unemployment rate was 19.3 per cent, compared to just 4.7 per cent in the UK. This time round, the differences are much smaller: in October, Romania’s unemployment rate was 6.9 per cent and Bulgaria’s was 12.4 per cent, while the UK’s has risen to 7.8 per cent.

For under-25s, the unemployment rates in Romania and Bulgaria are higher than here, but again the gap is much smaller than it was between the UK and countries like Poland, Slovakia and Lithuania in 2004.


Many have come already

It should not be forgotten that Romania and Bulgaria are not joining the EU on 1 January 2014, as Poland et al did on 1 May 2004. Instead, they’ve been members since 2007 and, despite the transitional controls, many have moved here since:

  • Work permits have been issued to them at a rate of around 40,000 a year, and National Insurance numbers at around 35,000 a year.
  • The number of Romanians living here has risen from 14,000 in 2006 to 93,000 in 2011, and the number of Bulgarians is up from 14,000 to 42,000.

In fact, while immigration from Romania and Bulgaria since 2007 hasn’t come close to the rate from Poland, it hasn’t been much out of step with immigration from the other A8 nations, as the numbers of National Insurance registrations show:


Other countries’ controls

In 2004, the UK was one of only three countries (with Ireland and Sweden) not to place transitional controls on the eight new Eastern European members. This time, we’re one of only two (with Malta) not to have either placed no restrictions in the first place or lifted or relaxed them since.


So while we should expect at least some increase when the transitional controls end, it might well not be the dramatic rise some expect.

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  • Oggy Dimitrov

    I understand the worries of you all. I agree that mass migration is a problem. I am a Bulgarian guy born in Bulgaria and I’m still living here, I never left and don’t want to leave my country. Living here is not so easy but at the same time not so bad. Believe me when I’m saying that there is no Bulgarian that want to leave his/her land. However these days due to to the threat of war migration to Bulgaria from the countries of the middle east increased rapidly and that created an enormous confusion and fear to all the Bulgarian people. We don’t have the tools to manage that kind of flood and when we want to prevent it EU starts scolding us. If EU remains so silent and ignorant about that threat it will fell apart because of the unbearable weight over it’s shoulders. Please mind that the mechanism’s wont always work and the cultural map will change and EU citizens will understand the deep mess that they are in. It is way too liberal and way too carefree. Not for a long time. I understand that there are a lot of colonized countries the people of which has the right to enter but my country does not owe that to any other. Wait for some more time and you will see that Bulgarians and Romanians are the least of your problems. Unfortunately from what I see the EU as we know it is doomed. I am very sad about it because the idea by itself is great but the reality is different. We ! The people of Europe are too different anyway but yet close enough and yet we keep opposing each other all the time which prevents everyone from tasting the benefit of the union. I personally don’t want to leave my country and to benefit from another. I want my kids to grow and live here as it was since 1300 years despite the byzantine wars in the past, despite the bloody Ottoman occupation in the past, despite the ridiculous communism, and despite the democracy and the capitalism that created something good but took the hearts and the souls of the people.

    I wish you all to be a little bit less hateful and a little bit more helpful to each other.

  • Ion

    Politicians use fear of emigrants to gain votes. The increase of emigrants will be small, because if East Europeans cannot find work in UK, they will go back, or somewhere else. Other emigrants don’t have this freedom.
    If your business need people, they will come, regardless of restrictions.
    If they will not come from Eastern Europe, they will come from Africa,Asia or South America.
    But if the laws don’t allow anyone to came in UK to work on free jobs, then the companies will relocate, and you will lose more jobs.
    Low wages from Eastern Europe have allowed to the European Economy to remain competitive on the world markets.
    Also the East European market was a place where you could sell low quality goods at premium price.
    Some nations like Germany took advantage about the European enlargement, and now they thrive. In Romania I find goods made in Germany, made in China, made in Japan, made in France, but I can’t find products made in UK. Why?

  • disqus_stexx4gvIt

    relax , romanians won’t invade Britain !!!

    Because you have bad food, and ugly women and the cars
    would hit us while crossing the streets.

    And the weather is bad, I have to agree with your
    propaganda here on this.

    Anyway our doctors are good to come as I see. Full of
    headhunters here gathering doctors all over the country tempting them with big

    Well I paid for their school and I don’t think is ok for
    you to take them for free. If you want them take the gypsies too.

    The only thing I like from Britain is Top Gear but I can
    watch that from home, so relax, will you ?!?

  • Grrr8

    Thanks for a comprehensive data survey. My conclusion from this is that v. few will come. Possibly those who are here illegally already will legalise themselves. That maybe the bigger impact on migration figures.

  • Nikolay Tanev

    Does anyone from you or the writer know how many Bulgarians left in Bulgaria? 5,000,000….Do you know how many are the retired people? 1.5 million…How many do you except to come in UK? I think won’t come so many because they already know what is doing UKBA with the documents, so they know that we are not welcome here…

  • fitz fitzgerald

    Polish and Romanian nationals top the stats for London crime these days … curiously under reported …

  • dansmith17

    At last a sensible briefing on the facts.

    They have been members since 2007, they have had the right to come and live here since day 1 and moderate numbers have come. They have come as students and can work part time, they have worked in agriculture and ironically the farmers are worried that as of January when it will be easier for them to get other employment they will see a labour shortage and they want to import from further East and they could come as self employed. That does not just mean owners of major business, but self employed Taxi driver or self employed construction worker.

    They have the right to live in 25 other countries and can work with no or little restrictions in 22 other countries today. The final removal of restrictions in UK, Spain, and Malta will not see massive change but will see some more coming. However the people complaining are mainly those who want to leave EU and stop any more coming from Poland or Portugal as well.

  • HooksLaw

    So …
    Romanian and Bulgarian citizens are already able to work without restrictions in Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovenia and Sweden and Ireland.
    Germany, France and the Netherlands have already reduced their restrictions.
    Up until 2011 they were able to work without restrictions in Spain.

    NutJob Central is thus howling itself into a frienzy over this? They would be better to examine the lack of interest in the obviously available jobs amongst our own workers. Labour has spent years ignoring the problem.
    The silence of the trade unions on this is the remarkable feature.

  • Mark Adrian

    We have to stop this

    Sign this petition to restrict Bulgarian and Romanians from entering the UK:

  • Russell

    Apart from the influx of illegal Muslim immigrants from primarily Iraq, Afghanistan and Somalia, we can look forwards to even more illegal immigrants from Bulgaria and Rumania, overstaying their ‘work permits’, as they already do, along with Pakistanis and Indians.

    • MBGPW

      Very soon,
      Bulgarian and
      will have
      the legal right
      to be here
      I am afraid Russell.

      With as many rights
      as you have.

  • Russell

    And yet Cameron/Miliband/Clegg are all supporters of our EU membership and none of these parties wants to allow the British people and Taxpayers a say on this.
    Withdrawal from the EU could end all our Immigration problems and allow us to decide who we wish to allow into this country.
    How many of the thousands of Romanian and Bulgarians who arrived here with jobs as farmworkers for 6 months still remain here after their 6 months was up?
    UKIP will get huge support in the forthcoming MEP and General Election, purely based on the Immigration problem our membership of the EU causes, never mind the UK contribution of £10billion per year net as the 2nd highest contributor, or the interference in UK law and Business regulations!.


    If you were migrant
    with a sick relative

    or two back
    with no chance
    of medical care,
    would you: –
    Leave them there?
    Bring them here?

    No Brainer?

    • Colonel Mustard

      No brain more like. Where would you draw the line? 75 million? 100 million? More? And when it impacts your sick relative already here who cannot get adequate medical treatment – what then? Your comment is as mindlessly stupid as wanting to rescue 200 survivors from a shipwreck in a lifeboat that will only hold 20. You know the lifeboat is going to sink but it is more important to help everyone, eh?

      • MBGPW


        I suggest you read
        my question again

        And then look up
        Socratic Method.

  • Noa

    What s the difference between 1- freedom of movement, 2-a temporary right to work, 3-mass immigration and 4-hostile invasion?
    Is it Consent?
    people would agree to the principle of 1, and want it bounded by 2.
    They are now extremely concerned by the imposition and lasting
    consequences of 3, as it melds into 4.

    I don’t recall the people of Lincolnshire being consulted about
    sharing their county with 50,000 plus Poles, or Roumanians, Bulgarians
    or Turks or indeed the people of England and Wales being requested to give their consent to the arrival of New Labour’s 5 million plus Tether immigrants to rub the Right’s nose in diversity.

    And equally British people have no desire to take up any false ‘right’ to move to Bucharest or Armenia or Islamabad, because the reciprocal opportunities, or facilities and empathetic culture simply don’t exist there.

    As the primary beneficiaries of mass migrant exploitation, the odd
    combination of marxist ideologists and international corporations
    cynically exploit British traditions of fairness, openness and
    opportunity, to create innumerable, hostile urban third world ghettoes
    and regional diasporas. The real price of such labour is not only the
    maintenance of a low minimum wage, but actual poverty, civil unrest and
    blood, paid by the ordinary men and women of England as they bitter oppose
    being reduced initially, to just another ethnic minority in their own country, before their own government facilitates their extinction.

    • Tom Tom

      You forgot the Portuguese in Boston and failed to mention the illegal stills in Boston where Poles have been producing lethal vodka

      • Noa

        My apologies Tom Tom.
        Like my government I am not fully aware of the vibrant number and diversity of the national, religious and ethnic micro communities and micro-breweries and stills which now grace our country.

    • dalai guevara

      Which previous cultural invasion have you experienced that you object to most? Please rate these on a scale of one to ten:

      a- Jamie Oliver’s Italian rip off
      b- the influx of the Japanese culture of modern assembly line production, destroying what was British engineering
      c- Morris dancing , an activity of Spanish origin
      d- Irish travelling – by air of course
      e- the demise of the fish and chip shop due to Tikka Masala
      f- private Catholic schooling (surely an activity only enjoyed by foreigners?)
      g- the brutal killing off of the nation of shopkeepers by American mall culture
      h- binge drinking on vodka shots, perhaps a Finnish or Russian idea?
      i- the Germans selling us trams and trains

      Can you in all honesty say you shun all of the above? So, what are you worrying about?

      You will not be expected to pour large sums of your money down any immigrant drain, there is simply no data to support a ‘foreign benefit scrounging’ theory.

      • Noa

        I’ve noticed before that you like to identify issues which posters haven’t actually raised and then criticise them on the straw issues you yourself have created!

        It’s a shame you weren’t borne into an era which could have made proper use of your talents, the requisite skills were all perfected by your Avatar’s hero, and his protege, Andrey Vyshinsky, would have appreciated the sincere flattery of of your imitation to his approach in judicial proceedings.

        Please explain though, why, if there is ‘no data to determine support a foreign benefit scrounging’ theory, how you intend to demonstrate that it will not cost you anything? As you admit, neither you or the government has a clue. Is it not better to be prudent then, and to use and extrapolate existing relevant data and estimate what the likely numbers, cost and effect might be?

        After all, one expects to hear the mantra of ‘don’t worry, be happy’ from a spliff wielding Bob Marley, rather than Government ministers. Happily even the shambolic Coalition has acknowledged that this particular wave of mass immigration ‘will cause problems.’

        Why can’t you?

        • dalai guevara

          There is no straw man – there is no ‘threat of extinction’ as YOU claim.
          Which of these external ‘influences’ do you fear most? Answer the question, instead of accusing me of diversion.

          Or could it be that you can’t because you have already been ‘assimilated’? Jesus Christ, what is wrong with you people, have you never been to see the world? It’s not all evil, you know.

          And give us your data which proves that CURRENT foreign benefit scounging is anything other than peanuts.

          • Noa

            As it’s your contention, you show me how the latest wave of immigrants won’t cost you anything.
            And, like the Colonel below, I’m amused (wryly), by your juvenile, plangent screech of little Englanderism. Like him I’ve spent decades working abroad on four continents; supporting and negotiating UK export business and sales.

            It’s taught me, above anything else, that it’s easy to make a bad decision on the basis of no information, and is still easy to make a
            bad decision on the basis of all available information.

            I bother to explain that to you so that you will understand my amusement at your thinking I will debate the fatuous straw issues you raise and my adverse evaluation of your capacities because of your panglossian indifference to the determine what consequences of a further wave of mass immigration are.

            I can assure you from my personal experience that, in Africa, Asia, Arabia and America the only people who sleep soundly next to migrant shanty towns are those who are adequately armed.

            Are you?

            • dalai guevara

              Ok Noa, we all have our individual international life and work experience, but that clearly does not mean we come to the same conclusions.

              To clarify one thing from the start: I do not care to engage much with the arguments of Little Englanders – that just does not appeal to me as it often has little depth and is mostly about internalised fear, feelings of inadequacy and thus lack of confidence. Shrinks will do a better job there.

              As I explained the list and my persistent questioning was not to really make you tickbox my virtual spreadsheet, but to demonstrate that our cultural history is of course fluid, many things that define us today are due to external influence, mostly for the better. As I stated below: if our societal evaluation process of accepting/rejecting influences was showing signs of failure, I would be concerned – my multicultural surroundings show no signs of such failure.

              And with regard to the guns and protection thing: only in locations with intolerably high richest/poorest 10% discrepancy ratios will we find this outcome. How many more billionaires do we need to get there?

              • Noa

                “I do not care to engage much with the arguments of Little Englanders.”
                Why do you then?

                “And with regard to the guns and protection thing: only in locations with
                intolerably high richest/poorest 10% discrepancy ratios will we find
                this outcome. How many more billionaires do we need to get there?”
                That is demonstrably untrue. Try living outside a guarded compound in Riyadh, Cairo, Florida, Lagos, Johannesburg or Pretoria and see how safe you are!
                Billionaires are of course able to secure their own secure protection.

                And tell me also,why, having accepted my initial preposition, you prefer to proceed to 3 and 4 without determining the consequences, rather than to 2?
                After all, a government which cannot protect its citizens or secure its borders is no longer worthy of the name.

                • dalai guevara

                  ‘After all, a government which cannot protect its citizens or secure its borders is no longer worthy of the name.’

                  None of the third world influx you talk about is in EU hands. It’s in OUR hands to deal with the matters you worry most about. Why are we not doing that?

                  ‘Try living outside a guarded compound in Riyadh, Cairo, Florida, Lagos, Johannesburg or Pretoria…’

                  yes of course, those places sport some of the highest r/p 10% ratios on the planet – yes, the US included. But do Norway or Germany tolerate these levels of rich/poor discrepancies?

                  ‘And tell me also,why, having accepted my initial preposition, you prefer to proceed to 3 and 4 without determining the consequences, rather than to 2?’

                  B&R do not pose that threat, third world influx perhaps does – we have full control of that process.

                • Noa

                  In reply:-
                  1.- “None of the third world influx you talk about is in EU hands. It’s in
                  OUR hands to deal with the matters you worry most about. Why are we not doing that?”

                  Why indeed? But we are talking specifically about B&R, which are. And you admit do not know the consequences of mass immigration from there.

                  2. We are not Norway or Germany, and are referring to the lasting adverse consequences of mass third world immigration-in which B&R are included.

                  3. “B&R do not pose that threat, third world influx perhaps does – we have full control of that process.”

                  I refer you to 1. and 2 above.

                • dalai guevara

                  Yes, your blog link demonstates brilliantly how the Spanish and British can work together…

        • Colonel Mustard

          I think you nailed that one nicely, especially in your first sentence.

          Comrades like the doolally che like to pontificate in generalities, e.g. imported cultures good, indigenous culture bad, so cannot handle specifics where this is likely to be challenged. The clue is in the spite with which Morris Dancing, for example, is addressed. Wherever it originated it is now a quintessentially English adornment, whereas I doubt that Romanian child begging gangs ever will be.

          He also suffers the common comradely delusion of assuming that those this erosion of indigenous identity concerns are Little Englanders with no understanding of the big wide world. Without arrogance I venture to suggest I have probably travelled further and longer than the doolally che, not just on holidays or corporate business trips but living and working for decades in foreign parts. This does not mean I should no longer cleave to a distinct national identity and a country whose character deserves preservation and respect.

          But the best part is his robust defence of something he cannot know, regardless of possible consequences. In the nicest possible way I hope he ends up surrounded by shanty town and the victim of imported crime – and enjoys those ‘external influences’ to the full.

          We have always had such people. Lord Halifax was one such – another who told us not to worry and that everything would be ok.

          • dalai guevara

            Colonel, you just don’t get it: no one encourages/wants/supports Romanian child begging. I have never advocated that, nor am I making a case for it to ‘replace our culture’. We already have our caravan people in the tarmacing industries not paying council tax. Why not include them in your captious analysis? Scared of alienating some of your clientele?

            But claiming that these issues which we already face would ‘extinct’ us, or ‘threaten our culture’, as you just did, is utter nonsense. As with the case of Morris Dancing, there is a cultural evaluation process in place which either rejects or accepts the incoming ideas. Only if that evaluation process by society was broken/non-existent/denied, would we have to worry. So I am actually with Bobby McFerrin on this.

            • Colonel Mustard

              I’m afraid it is you who just doesn’t get it and for someone accusing others of “captious analysis” you have some nerve suggesting I am scared of alienating my “clientele”.

              The “claims” you attribute to me I have not actually made – “But claiming that these issues which we already face would ‘extinct’ us, or ‘threaten our culture’, as you just did, is utter nonsense.” Where?Where have I “claimed” that? Once again you construct your opponent’s argument for him in order to ridicule it.

              You have taken an unknown and decided an outcome to it as definitive. The scale of immigration we have witnessed here in recent years is unprecedented. There are real issues of sustainability and economics that are being ignored or plastered by government. Of course you do not encourage Romanian child begging – you merely support the process by which such things arrive here. How reassuring.

              • dalai guevara

                Noa used the phase ‘face extinction’, I thought you would figure that.

                You urged me to ‘enjoy the outside influence to the full’, so *cultural threat* is not your driving motive of your arguments? I have already softened the terminology for you…

                • Noa

                  If, as you say you do, you accept the premise that mass immigration can merge into hostile invasion, then you also accept that may lead to the extinction of minorities.
                  There are innumerable precedents which illustrate the point, so why would you want to decry it?

                • dalai guevara

                  Are you referring to the Migration Period?


                  What are you referring to on a European scale?

          • Noa

            Thank you Colonel.

            -“But the best part is his robust defence of something he cannot know,
            regardless of possible consequences.”

            Yes, it would be amusing if such attitudes and approach weren’t so pervasive. They demonstrate a lazy and unthinking arrogance that leaps to personal insult when their ‘correct’ world view isn’t docilely accepted.

            Objectivity in considering major issues is sorely wanting in the UK and indeed the West generally, when they should be evaluated on logical and demonstrable benefits and consequences.

            “In the nicest possible way I hope
            he ends up surrounded by shanty town and the victim of imported crime –
            and enjoys those ‘external influences’ to the full.”

            I would prefer that he obtains such cultural enrichment abroad, and does not succeed in inflicting it on me and mine in my country.

      • Wilhelm


        The difference is they’re bringing something to the party, Sub Saharan bantus and muslims aren’t. Talking of which, Sudanese gang rape a woman in Finland by scissors.

        ” The article highlighted the infamous “scissor rapists” — Sudanese black
        Africans who clitorectomized a Finnish female rape victim with scissors
        in June 2005 in Oulu and were sentenced to three years in prison in
        January 2006. The author asked why Finland was bringing in such
        immigrants and why there were no subsequent arrests for the other
        African gang rapists still terrorizing my city. (Finland itself has no
        history of gang rape among the native Finns.)”

        • dalai guevara

          Good to hear from you. Yes, you highlight a fact that emphasises my point:

          1- there is EU migration, some claim this had alienating effects on our society that we could no longer resolve, I dispute that.

          2- there are sustainability issues with third party immigration levels (Britain’s colonial past), which we have full control over. It has nothing to do with the EU, we are our own masters with regard to the outcome – something we were not discussing here, simply because R&B are not part of this group.

  • Wilhelm

    On SKY news they review the newspapers at 10.30pm and 11.30pm. A female journalist, can’t remember her name, said this, the other night.

    ” Romanian immigrants will not come to Britain, cos I’m married to a Romanian man, and he told me they wont ! ”

    Well, that’s that cleared up, we’ve got a cast iron guarantee. The stupidity and naivety of Liberals never ceases to amaze me, it’s a mental illness.

    • Patricia

      “The stupidity and naivety of Liberals never ceases to amaze me, it’s a mental illness.”
      There’s none so blind as those …. etc etc.

      • Wilhelm

        The difference between Left wing and Right wing people.

        Right wing people are realists, we believe the world is full of suffering and evil. That’s the way it is, and we accept it.

        Left wing people are optimists, or to be more precise, utopian fantasists, they actually believe the world can be fixed. Thus they have endless schemes like ” End World Hunger, End World Poverty, Find a cure for AIDS , Cut Third World Debt, and of course, Solve Africa’s Problems.”

        Just one more scheme, they believe, and it will be Utopia. There is a self righteousness, zealousness, piousness and delusion / blindness about them. It’s a mental illness.

        • Colonel Mustard

          And the journey towards those utopian fantasies invariably involves more misery, more coercion and unintended consequences worse than the problems to begin with.

          • DWWolds

            And spending other people’s money – until it runs out.

        • Daniel Maris

          If everyone took that view, we’d still have mass slavery, be working 12 hour days and have children down the mines. Maybe you’d like it that way. Fortunately, our forefathers were not all “realists” like you.

          And they have found an effective cure for AIDS. Did you not notice?

          • Wilhelm


            Gosh ! Speak of the Devil, I make a comment about deluded idealist utopian fantasists, floating on a pink fluffy cloud, and you immediately turn up.

    • HooksLaw

      ooh – we are talking about foreigners and the local racist comes out from under his stone.

      • Wilhelm


        Don’t put yourself down.

  • Tom Tom

    When British living standards converge with those of Romania there will be less reason for Britons to stay here and they can leave this godforsaken island to the Overlord Class that thinks it is running a new Norman Conquest eradicating Anglo-Saxon culture

  • Hexhamgeezer

    …….in short the Migration ‘Advisory’ Committee don’t want to guess and neither do you.

    Romania and Bulgaria are the 2 poorest and most corrupt states in the EU, so what’s another 200,000 of their sons and daughters?

    • telemaque

      It bears repeating that folks from Bulgaria and Romania have positive influences on the UK labour market in helping to fill skills shortages, boosting productivity and creating new taxpayers.

      Of course little englanders even those near the pictish border would not see this

      • DWWolds

        But those skills shortages have been caused, among other things, by the dumbing down of our education system by Labour. And the research HofL’s committee concluded that the economic benefits from immigration were virtually non-existent.

        • HooksLaw

          Correct. The people who will suffer from any inflow will be those already out of work or on benefits. Those in work will benefit from the cheap labour.

          • Colonel Mustard

            What absolute nonsense. Are you a gang boss?

      • Colonel Mustard

        Repeating just about sums you up. It is usually unbearable though.

      • George Anderton

        One interesting fact from the above article. Of the 40,000 per year who have been issued with work permits, 12.5% have not bothered to apply for a National Insurance No. What can we glean from that?

      • Hexhamgeezer

        Dear moderator, insert benefit description reply here.

  • Daniel Maris

    Migration Watch have proved the most accurate of predictors in the past. If they are right and we take in another 250,000 over five years, that’s probably another 100,000 houses we’ve got to build over the next five year just to stand still i.e. before we have provided any new housing for our existing citizens.

    It’s insupportable, given the continued net inflows and the increased burdens also on health, education, transport and welfare. The point is being made about HSR that we need to build it to relieve pressure on teh rest of the rail system – pressure that comes form our out of control population growth, which in turn is nearly wholly down to recent and past post war immigration.

    Get a grip Speccie folk. Reality is going to bite your tender parts most assuredly over the next few years as the effects of this massive, continuing and unrelenting wave of migration play through.

    • HooksLaw

      Overseas workers will live umpteen to a house whilst they work to earn a grubstake to take back home.
      There are over 600,000 empty houses in the UK

      • Noa

        That may be. Though elsewhere you are encouraging people to remove themselves from the larger homes now surplus to their requirements. There may therefore be competition for these empty houses.

        And of course we don’t know whether the new arrivals will go so conveniently to where these empty houses are.

      • Daniel Maris

        There may 600,000 “empty” houses but there aren’t 600,000 “free” houses. They are often empty for a reason – a death, long term illness, planning blight, subsidence, fire damage etc etc.

    • Noa

      It is worth pointing out that Mr Jones’ report of Migrationwatch’s estimate is selectively disingenuous and is toward the lowest end. The variables it mentions tend to support Phillip Hollobone’s higher estimate of 330,000.

      “…Immigration from Romania and Bulgaria could amount to 50,000 a year in the first five years. That is the conclusion of a study issued by Migration Watch UK today.
      250,000 is the population of a city of the size of Plymouth or
      Newcastle. That number could be considerably higher if there were to be
      a movement of Roma to the UK or if some of the nearly one million
      Romanians in both Spain and Italy should transfer to Britain.”

      • Daniel Maris

        Yes – it was a very cautious estimate.

  • Colonel Mustard

    We live beside a river and on low-lying ground. Winter is approaching. We cannot possibly know how much rain will fall or whether the river banks will overflow. Therefore it is absolutely pointless to take any precautions to protect the house.

    Let’s wait until we are standing waist deep in water before we think about sandbags, eh?

    • Patricia

      Why don’t the politicians see this point ? Must we wait until the entire country is swathed in new towns, schools crowded to bursting point with new intake unable to speak English and a third-world heatlth system that can’t cope with the hordes?

      • Tom Tom

        Politicians are hirelings – like rats they run round their cages and have no idea of the world outside their cages

      • telemaque

        You forget the economic benefits
        We need these folk to regenerate our economy

        • Patricia

          “We need these folk to regenerate our economy”
          If this were true, it should have happened by now.

      • burningbeardy

        Cheap labour is all our master’s see…

        • Mazzzz

          All our master’s see are potential votes!

    • Trofim

      A good analogy. To young optimistic thrusting politicians, like teenage drivers and young red-blooded bankers, nothing untoward could possibly happen. Caution and circumspection are the stuff of miserable, stuffy old people.

      • Tom Tom

        Yes like the beginning of Dr Zhivago when noone considers Strelnikov

      • telemaque

        I guess you have divined the essence of the retriever loving home counties classes

        • Colonel Mustard

          I neither live in the Home Counties nor own a retriever. So that is you wrong again, that is.

        • Noa

          Barking, and up the wrong tree, again.

    • Noa

      Flooding is an excellent example of the incompetence of government, with no one in overall control, no one body being held to account and responsibility spread like oil between various agencies:-

      “Defra has national policy responsibility for flood and coastal erosion
      risk management. Defra does not build or manage flood defences. Instead,
      government provides funding through grants to the Environment Agency
      and local authorities. The Environment Agency also administers grants
      for capital projects to local authorities and Internal Drainage Boards.”

      • telemaque

        In truth no-one wants to take responsibility because deep down they realise that there is a major benefit to the economy and are afraid to articulate it

        • Youbian

          That actually made me burst out laughing.

    • dalai guevara

      Agreed, our unemployment rate is HIGHER than that of Romania. Let’s fix that.

      • Colonel Mustard

        Silly comment – even for you. And completely out of touch with both reality and the mood hereabouts.

        • dalai guevara

          ‘Completely out of touch’

          Has it occured to your that for some European nations, R&B have been neighbouring states, well…forever? I understand that they are at the other end of ‘Planet Europe’ for many in these Churchillian waters, but nonetheless they are Europeans, that is a fact.

          I am aware of at least three businesses in a 2 mile radius that run UK subsidaries in Romania. Are you saying we should also put a lid on that ‘despicable behaviour’ called trade? Where do you stop?

          The European people have a right to travel, work and settle in any member state of the EU, it is guaranteed by the Treaty of Rome which has been LAW for over sixty years now. The buffer of seven years was introduced to limit the impact of migration. Is this your second attempt today to question the rule of good law?

          • Colonel Mustard

            Once again you put words into the mouths of others and completely fail to distinguish between free trade and mass immigration – especially the mass immigration of benefits tourists. You are also arrogant to assume that resistance to the impositions of the EU is somehow insular and xenophobic. And you are deceitful. You know exactly what my point was and why, but again you choose to paraphrase it in a construction of your own prejudice in order to condemn it and to batter us with your pro-EU, pro-uncontrolled immigration viewpoint.

            My point was, and is, how a pettily risk averse government, one that succeeded a previous pettily risk averse government, manages to adopt such a reckless wait and see stance to a situation that could have a major and devastating impact on the infrastructure and people of this country.

            The rule of “good” law? My, how you extend yourself. British law used to be governed by the principle of consent, which is sadly lacking in all of this. I don’t give a fig for the legality of your Treaty of Rome if its consequences threaten the people of England’s right to enjoy life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness within their own country, free from the impositions of foreign states and their people. Long before the Treaty of Rome there was the Bill of Rights, now trampled on by EU puppet politicians, which some might say makes your Treaty of Rome and its consequences illegal. To attempt to silence dissent and concern about all that by brandishing the club of imposed foreign law is the act of a tyrant. You are, sir, the Assad of mass immigration.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              Now, now, field marshal, play nice. You mustn’t squabble with your Mother Gaia coreligionist.

              • Colonel Mustard

                I have no idea what you are on about. Is Mother Gaia a Canadian thing? I’m CofE.

                Still, I’m glad that you recognise what the MOD never could.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Oh come now, lad, you can let your hair down here, you came out of the closet yesterday!

                  No need to scuttle about the catacombs with a fluffy polar bear painted on your chest. Let it out, you’ll be bishop field marshal soon enough, along with your new bud the right reverend vicar che lama, at the vanguard of mother earth protectionism.

                  And may the free range chickens be with you both!

                • Colonel Mustard

                  That’s ok, you can have the last word. I know that you like to. I still prefer the doolally che to you. He and his views I merely disagree with. You I just dislike. Don’t feel bad – you bring it on yourself by your shouty, abusive, rude act.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Goodness, the vitriol. Such uncontrolled emotional displays are unhealthy, lad. But fear not, I won’t feel bad. Your whimpering is a constant, like the weather. Best to skip over it, I find, as it has little value.

                  Nothing shouty or abusive about calling you a whimpering, blowhard fantasist, commodore. That’s what you are, and a simple relation of facts isn’t abusive, it’s instructive.

                  But good you’ve found your socialist soulmate in che lama, no doubt. Suggest you stay clear of my posts in the future, however, as they seem to upset you terribly.

            • dalai guevara

              Colonel, I cannot stop you from negating history, making up your own, or indeed negating the fact that it was Britain that signed up/joined/took advantage of a club in 1973 legally/by common concent/’disputed’ only by backward thinkers which you now personally find so deeply repungnant. We did so in various stages, and will continue to do so as this is not ‘the end of history’.

              The reason why so few of a rational mind care whether you ‘give a fig’ is because the Treaty of Rome does nothing of the kind you state. We are not members of Schengen. We run out own immigration policy. We are IN CONTROL of it, and most of it is of our own making.

              The claim I would attempt to silence dissent on this is utterly ludicrous. By discussing it? Calling me a tyrant only because I object to blanket restrictions and exclusions, but favour a constructive solution, does not make me someone who is negating ‘the mood’. The mood needs to turn positive, or all is lost.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …and there’s where you’re wrong.

                Assad may be just what’s needed here. The headchoppings would continue ’til morale improved.

              • Colonel Mustard

                I’m afraid you won’t turn the mood to positive with a comment like that.

            • ArchiePonsonby

              Brilliantly put, that man!

    • dansmith17

      The issue is what kind of sandbags are available. Romania and Bulgaria joined in 2007 so decisions were made back in 2005-6. The 2 issues are the next joiners and benefit tourism.

      1. The rest of the EU is not keen on further expansion at present but the UK government for some reason is still one of the strongest supporters of letting Turkey with a further 80 million people join. This must be blocked. The gradual incorporation of what is left of Yugoslavia, from 2020 onwards is less of an issues there are just not that many people involved and everyone is happy for the process to be slowed down but Turkey needs to be kept out.

      2. EU rules say once someone is an EU citizen they are entitled to the same benefits of a local citizen. So the issue becomes if they live here and pay tax and NI, they become over time entitled to benefits and what is wrong with that. However what is some one entitled to who has never worked a day in his life and never contributed anything in Tax or NI, and should you be entitled to benefits just for being alive regardless of whether you were born in Sofia or Swindon, Bucharest or Basildon.

      • Noa

        I’d be happy for Turkey’s entry into the EU, as long as the UK was exiting as they joined. I would expect the sudden break up of the EU as Germany refused to bear the primary responsibilty of supporting both Europe and Asia Minor.