Coffee House

The small-minded people of the abortion debate

10 October 2012

Are men not allowed to talk about abortion any more? I’ve lost count of the angry comments I have read on Facebook and Twitter, denouncing Jeremy Hunt, the new Health Secretary, as a vile bigot because he supports a reduction in the 24 week time-limit on legal abortions. ‘Hunt: stay out of my c***’ is one that sticks in mind.
Lily Allen, the singer turned Twitterer, has joined the outrage. ‘Can small minded idiot blokes stop telling women whether or not they’re entitled to abortions please?’ She added: ‘Enough now… The day the number of single father households equal the number of single mother households is the day I start to listen to their views.’

Hang on there Lily, because the small-minded one here might be you. Women seem more and more united in the idea that any man who questions the absolute pro-choice position is dangerous and ‘ideological’ (which is, I think, a synonym for religious). To question Britain’s abortion laws in public is to be howled at by furious women. Older female columnists this week rolled off authoritative pieces saying they didn’t fight for women’s rights just so that ‘right-wing men’ could take them away. Leave our bodies alone etc. Men can have no idea what it is like to carry an unwanted child. No woman takes the decision to abort a child lightly, and so on.

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The reaction seems suspiciously immediate and unthinking. As it happens, I do think that some women – those, say, who have had five or six abortions – take the decision too lightly, and I think men should be allowed to say so.

If a foetus were always just part of a woman’s body, then Lily and co might be right — anti-abortion men would simply be misogynists, right-wing or otherwise. But it isn’t that simple, is it? The right to an abortion isn’t another battle in the war for equality. Even Lily has to admit that at some point in a pregnancy there is another person involved – albeit a tiny and silent one – and that person’s existence ought to be considered, at least. And if a man wants to stand up for those tiny little beings – it seems a bit, er, bigoted to say that he can’t because he doesn’t have a womb.

Sometimes it looks to me as if all the shouting and twittering and raging at men over abortion has become an excuse not to think too deeply about the subject and its disturbing implications.

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Show comments
  • TigerGirl

    @twitter-80313999:disqus you have made an excellent point to discuss, thank you. i completely agree with you. also, on a similar note, it seems no one has discussed the problems with the fact that this planet is already grossly over populated and getting worse. maybe we should start looking at the problems that banning abortions would cause? babies are not babies for long. they are soon children and then teenagers and then adults. this process for the parents or parent comes with huge financial outlay. it is of course a great experience to be a parent and watch a little person grow up, but it comes with huge responsibility, huge amounts of stress and worry, a journey of struggle. many people who have had children even admit they wish they had never had them because it is so difficult.
    ok, a few things to consider – why is sex such a widely popular activity? it is enjoyable, yes, but also it is shoved in your faces everywhere you turn. you open a magazine or newspaper or turn on the tv and it’s SEX SEX SEX, HAVE SEX OR YOU’RE A FREAK. no one is addressing the issue as to why everyone is having sex all the time. and remember – before you all back lash me saying ”yeah but everyone knows the potential consequences of unprotected sex”, remember pregnancy does occur even when protection has been used. and if you then want to revert to ”yeah but that’s why no sex before marriage is the only good solution” then i go back to my point of looking at the media. SEX SEX SEX EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK. IF YOU’RE NOT DOING IT YOU’RE A SQUARE.
    furthermore some of you say ”abortion is murder” – well then if that is the case, do you think women who have abortions should be sentenced to life inprisonment? that’s what you get for murder – or in some cases the death penalty. so you think a woman seeking an abortion ought to be punished with life inprisonment or death? think about that one carefully.
    Also no one has brought up the fact that in most unplanned pregnancies the man involved with the pregnancy will want the woman to have an abortion. so in this situation how much of a say does the man have? lots of you insinuate that a woman and man’s right to abortion should be equal. well i wonder what all the men on here think of that statistic.

  • Anon

    “those, say, who have had five or six abortions – take the decision too lightly, and I think men should be allowed to say so.”
    This implies that women who have to undergo late term abortions are “serial aborters”. This issue is largely irrelevant to Hunt’s proposed amendments to the law. However, it does highlight Gray’s judgemental, out-of-touch notion of “the sort of woman” that would be affected by such policy change.

  • Stephanie Tohill

    “Even Lily has to admit that at some point in a pregnancy there is another person involved – albeit a tiny and silent one – and that person’s existence ought to be considered, at least. And if a man wants to stand up for those tiny little beings – it seems a bit, er, bigoted to say that he can’t because he doesn’t have a womb.”

    Yes of course his opinion can be considered, as much as my opinion as to who the Americans should elect for president can be considered. But the reality it forced pregnancy is wrong and so the decision to abort or not is really for the woman whose womb it is. I have yet to hear an argument that convinces me that a woman’s control over her womb is secondary to the rights of the unborn child/government over that womb.


  • Sue

    I am an anti abortionist. I make no apologies for this. I am 60 and years ago was nearly forced into having an abortion. I met many other women in the same position and was appalled to meet several women who were using abortion as a way of birth control. Luckily I did not go through with my abortion and today I have a beautiful daughter and 2 wonderful grand daughters. One of my daughters went on to have an abortion which distressed me greatly, but it was her decision and she had to make her choice. I still, however, think abortion is too easy to get.

  • Turbo Canuck

    I am a father of 1 child in her 24th trimester, plus the one whose mother decided not to keep it past the first. Not judging those who make the “pro choice” decision, but to me, 17 years ago, my high school girlfriend took the life of my 1st child. That’s how I feel. Call me out of line for saying it.

  • LouLouBelle

    Lay off Lilly, Freddie – she’s being quoted selectively (and is iterating what the vast majority of the female population in her age bracket believe).

    A debate on the pros & cons of castration for sex offenders would naturally focus on male opinion as more valid as we have no idea what it is like to be intimately attached to a pair of testicles. It is unfortunate – depending on your politics – that Mr Hunt’s name rhymes with ladyparts, but not the least bit surprising for the phrase to have been coined.

    The suggestion that abortions are generally entered into without any consultation with an interested male party i.e. the father, is vaguely hysterical, and for me carries that old misogynistic inference that young women are running around getting themselves impregnated willy nilly without a thought for the poor potential father. In each of the few cases that I’m aware the man involved was either in agreement/offering to pay, utterly disinterested, or unknown.
    That’s not to say that the father shouldn’t have a say: indeed he should. But legislators must by necessity deal with absolutes and in this case the ‘greater’ say can only ever fall to the woman involved. To allow for otherwise would be a gross invasion of the most basic human right.
    After much evidence and the impassioned argument from all sides, I still see no compelling reason to change the law.

  • Me

    I just want lily to shut her mouth full stop! Thought she retired and wanted out of the limelight?

  • Gordon

    I think the issue here is that government interferes in far to many issues which are personal, in this case very personal and better dealt with between the individual and her medical specialists. Back off Hunt and fix the nation’s finances.

  • ProChoicer

    Can’t we just leave the law as it is and let women get on with their lives? If a woman falls pregnant and does not want or cannot have the child, whatever the reason, she should be able to have the CHOICE and the RIGHT to a clean and safe abortion. Everyone else should butt out, whether male or female, because a decision like that is for the woman, not Jeremy Hunt or any other politician to make. Why is that so difficult for some people to comprehend?

    • Madame Merle

      Thank you, ProChoicer for your wise comment.

      Everyone is entitled to their opinion but that is all it is, an opinion.

      It seems ludicrous that the likes of Jeremy Hunt, the church, the transport secretary and others should have any real influence on what a woman and her doctor think is best.

      If you’re going to listen to that lot, why not ask the Taliban what they suggest?

  • Adii

    There wouldn’t be nearly as many single mothers if they just used birth control, their baby shouldn’t have to suffer just because they were too lazy to get some birth control. It’s their own fault so why should they get an easy way out?

    • Alice

      that is completely ridiculous contraception isn’t 100% effective


        True, Alice, but I am sure that most abortions don’t come about because of a failure in a condom.

        • Alice

          You couldn’t possibly know that

  • Alice

    This article and some of the comments on here disgust me. How many of you here have had to make the difficult decision of having an abortion? I myself have had an abortion and I don’t regret it, it still was a hard decision to make but I know that I wouldn’t have been able to love and care for that child. I agree with a comment on here that says where are pro-life supporters after the baby is born? I was 20 went I fell pregnant and I was completely ill equipped to take care of a child, I had recently lost my mother and had just split up with my boyfriend, I had nobody to help me. I didn’t want to bring up a baby and have to rely on benefits for the rest of my life. I am now at university and know that in the future after my degree and getting a job if I fell pregnant again that I would have the skills, maturity and money to bring up a child and to give them a better life than I would have been able to give a baby when I was 20. I can see why some people may think ‘do not kill an innocent baby’ but for one it’s a foetus not a baby and two you think having a baby in a dangerous/unstable/unloving environment is a good idea? Bringing up a child in that situation is a lot worse. Not everybody has the luxury of having family and friends to support them. Before people judge women who go through this they need think to of the reasons why they might have done it, there are many different factors maybe circumstances or medical reasons. I don’t agree that women have abortions just to ‘keep a certain lifestyle’ as it is a enormously difficult decision to make and is an extremely painful process to go through both mentally and physically.

    • Fergus Pickering

      I am inclined to agree with you, but you didn’t fall pregnant you know. It wasn’t a disease that happened to you like cholera. You became pregnant because you had sexual intercourse wit a man. Your choice. Well, we all make bad choices..

      • Atheist

        Accidents can happen you judgemental arsehole, I guess you need to actually have ‘sexual intercourse’ to appreciate that though…no contraceptive is 100%

  • Lawford

    Its not about religion and its not about a woman’s right to choose (at least not initially). Its a single fundamental question – when is life life? I think that this question must be answered by science. If a foetus is “alive” then I don’t understand how anyone, mother, father or state, is in a position to state why a life should be terminated regardless of reason. I emphasise again that it should be a scientific or medical definition of life and not a religious one.

    While I may be a man I have had to support my seriously ill partner in making the hardest decision of our lives. So I don’t seek to trivialise the experience or its impact.

  • luis

    So now husbands, boyfriends and male partners have no say on their own babies and this women an insult to my intelligence or what? And if there are more single mum house holds it is thanks to these feminist hate mongering bigots who reject their husbands, boyfriends, etc…and decide to leave alone with their children, most of the times even not allowing them to be with their own children, and they do it knowing that the ystem is bias and will pritect them..sorry, who does this women think men are? stupid? Every single word that comes from her month is an insult to my intelligence..

  • Slim Jim

    I’m not against abortion per se, but I do object to it being used as a form of contraception, because it is inconvenient to progress with the child’s life. Perhaps there should be more incentives for a woman to adopt her child if she can’t or won’t keep it herself? I wonder if the pro-abortion enthusiasts support other forms of state-sanctioned killing, such as euthanasia, or capital punishment?

    • Fergus Pickering

      I support both euthanasia and capital punishment. I think most people do.

  • Martin Cleaver

    Jeremy Hunt is the halfwit who thinks that homeopathy isn’t quackery?

    • Fergus Pickering

      I don’t know what he thinks, but there is no doubt that homeopathic remedies work sometimes. I believe there is no medical proof that taking aspirin will have any beneficent effect, but it does. I don’t take homeopathic remedies myself, but my ister does, and gains much relief therefrom.

  • withheld

    abortion is so wrong if you get yourself pregnant you should just continue with tthe pregnancy you was foolish enough to end up like it so you should have the child except cases such as pregnancy due to rape then i believe that to be understandable other than that i dont agree with abortion at all

  • Hattie

    The comments on this page sicken me, as many (many, not all) people are in fact being incredibly judgmental and presumptuous. Read into Lily’s comments and she is not denying men a voice at all, and in fact many of the comments below provide a voice far more stridently opinionated than her comment which you all seem to take as horrendously opinionated and biased. Please do not judge simply on a very one-sided ‘article’. I would certainly be far more inclined to take this article seriously if it acknowledged the many other sides of this complex argument. Because the truth is, most abortions take place before the period of 12 weeks. (I forget the exact statistics but it is a very high percentage) From here on up to 24 weeks, only a tiny percentage of overall abortions take place; for example, people who did not previously realise they were pregnant (not as rare as it may sound), people who’s circumstances have changed forcing them unable to take care of another human life adequately, and other such decisions. The closer you get to the 24 weeks boundary, the fewer abortions are performed and mostly for extremely sad medical reasons. Of course there are many exceptions to this rule and undeniably abortions can be used as ‘a lazy method of contraception’. But as a 17 year old, who is on a long term and reliable method of contraception, if i were to fall pregnant, i know that, without a doubt i would not be able to support a child. More than that, I would not want to bring into the world a child that I would not want in any way, and i would be tethered to for a good 18 years and supporting for a good time longer. I would like to, in the occurance of these circumstances, be confident that I could still have a life, study, get what I want out of it before finally setting down to have and love and want a child at the right time of my life for me. Because the fact is, men can never have an involvement exactly as equal as a woman in pregnancy and parenting. I am not denying them the right to voice their opinion at all- but they don’t have to carry the child, and as much as this is changing and (i hope) will continue to change, women DO have a more active role in bringing up children. There is no doubt about it. And I know that I wouldn’t want to be finding myself pregnant accidently at, say, 13 weeks, and be unable to stop it before it goes any further, and have to bring a child, a human, a PERSON, into the world unloved and unwanted because of the strident views of our new health secretory, who, with all due respect will NEVER have to make this difficult decision for himself. I would never want to deny him, (or any other man for that matter) a voice, but the idea that he should be able to impose his opinion on us all, and to possibly be able to change our situations in a negative way, to me is repellent. And that is how I feel.

    • Hugh

      9% take place after 12 weeks. So about 17,500 abortions a year. Whether that’s tiny or not depends on your point of view, but it’s surely big enough to make the issue of the limit one worth considering. And I’m not sure there is any data on the reasons for these post 12-week abortions, but, as it is, a wide variety of European countries opting for 12-week limits allow exemptions beyond that for specific reasons, so that doesn’t seem a good reason not to talk about it.

      Furthermore, I’m not sure Hunt did propose imposing his opinion. I’m not a subscriber to the Times, but as far as I can tell he made not even a hint of wishing to remove the free vote and said the coalition have no plans to legislate. “It’s just my view about that incredibly difficult question about the
      moment that we should deem life to start,” was the quote I picked up.

      Finally, the only way Lilly Allen’s comment can be interpreted is to say that Hunt’s words carry no weight because he is a man and that he should shut up – because he’s a man (though one suspects Lily would allow a man to support the current limit). That is pretty close to wanting to deny him a voice.

      • Hattie

        17,500 abortions in comparison with the huge amount which is the other 91%? Which are (as far as I believe from the research I have undertaken) is often composed of people with changes in circumstances, people who simply didn’t realise, younger people too afraid to do anything about it for a certain amount of time, people believing themselves to have past the menopause, medical emergencies, and of course many other reasons. Personally I feel that unless a foetus is actually viable and able to survive dependent of the womb, despite extraordinary cases of medical emergency/disability, people should have the choice to abort. Of course it isn’t a bad reason to discuss, there are always problems with every system, but the fact that some European countries are opting for the 12 week boundary does not immediately warrant every other country to declare that abortion over 12 weeks is wrong also, especially when one takes into account that there is no scientific evidence supporting the viability of a foetus until possibly 22 weeks at the very very earliest.
        Furthermore I have no problem with Jeremy Hunt having this opinion- he is completely entitled to it and I totally respect this and all the reasons he may have for reaching it. It is more the idea of what this opinion could impose if it were put forward for legislation that I oppose, which seems to me a good cause for discussion. It is more the comments on the article that anger me and the extremely judgmental and sometimes stereotypical views.
        Lily Allen’s comment must be interpreted as you take it. Having read around it and other things she has said on the matter, I don’t take it in the way you appear to at all, but I suppose, each to their own.

        • Hugh

          What research?

          Personally, I don’t’ think viability alone should determine the limit, but as you say, each to their own.

          I did not suggest that the fact that some European countries opt for 12 weeks means we must, but the fact that some do and that most opt for under 24 weeks does suggest some of the reaction to Hunt’s opinion is a bit over the top. “Repellent”, for example, seems to rather overstate it. Currently the opinion that 24-weeks is an appropriate limit is imposed, so I fail to see what is so outrageous in the prospect that at some point another opinion might be imposed. I’m not sure how else the law on abortion could work.

          As for Lily’s comment, it might not adequately reflect what she actually believes, but the interpretation I put on it is its plain implication, so she deserves to be taken to task for it.

          • Hattie

            With all due respect, how would you know how I spend my time and how I gather my information on these subjects? I haven’t simply jumped to conclusions for my answers. I also understand totally what you said about the limit in European countries, and the comment was an observation of my own not a reflection on your reply. And neither do I believe that the viability of the foetus is the only factor, and never had I said so, in fact my first comment mentions nothing of that so I’m unsure of how you came to this conclusion, but it cannot be said that the viability of the foetus is not a factor in this. And I don’t think that the introduction of a new limit as an appropriate limit is ‘repellent’ or ‘outrageous’, to the contrary, if it were backed up by scientific evidence i would wholeheartedly embrace it, therefore if the limit were decreased to 22 or so weeks, where it has been proven a baby born can survive, i would be in favour. However it is such a jump, to 12 weeks, with no (as far as I can see) evidence of any benefit whatsoever, it merely seems to me to be on the whims or ideas of others in favour of that limit, so would achieve absolutely nothing,
            And again, as I said, each to their own.

            • Hugh

              I don’t know how you gather your information.That’s why I asked.

              I came to the conlcusion that you considered viability the determining factor because you stated that “unless a foetus is actually viable and able to survive dependent of the womb…people should have the choice to abort. ”

              I used the word “repellent”, because it’s the word you used to describe the idea that Hunt’s view should be imposed and because any limit means imposing someone’s view. And, finally, I used the word “outrageous”on the same basis and since it seemed an accurate description of Lily Allen’s attitude as well.

        • Alex

          I think what the author of this piece objects to is that it is somehow only a women’s issue and that men should stay out of it, when in fact a man was involved in creating the child, and every man was once a foetus. Also, am I the only one who sees the irony in some pregnant women wanting men to ‘stay out’ of discussions about their ‘female anatomy’, yet if they hadn’t let a man into their female anatomy in the first place they wouldn’t be needing an abortion I’m not pro-life or anything – I support contraception and believe that abortions should be legal but rare, but I find the find the way that an matter of life has been turned into a matter of feminine hygiene to be disingenuous and slightly troubling.

          • Sarah

            You know there’s a really simple way men could prevent all abortions at 24 weeks.

            If they really cared about it.

            • Fergus Pickering

              You mean don’t father any children? Certainly foolproof but rather drastic. And there’s one way women… You know, don’t do it. You don’t have to lie on your back for just any bloke. Yes I know this leaves out rapists, but I think we can discount them. Lesbians of the world unite.

    • Kevin

      I am shocked that you expect to receive any sympathy for this utterly evil attitude to children.

      • Hattie

        Why would I expect sympathy? and I have an evil attitude to children because i would refuse to bring a child into a world when I could not support it? I don’t want a child at this stage of my life, and therefore bringing an unwanted child into the world would be far more evil, when as much as I am sure parental/maternal love would come into place when it was born, It would nonetheless be an unwanted child. I find your comment sadly a little laughable and more than a bit ridiculous.

        • Slim Jim

          It wouldn’t be evil to adopt the child to a loving couple who can’t have their own. There are thousands of couples who would dearly love to have a child, but the adoption rates are not featuring much on the political radar, are they?

          • Hattie

            Adoption is certainly an option, I would applaud anyone with the strength to go through that. However like every option it has it’s issues. Pregnancy in itself might not be an option at all for some, and I feel that people should be able to express their own opinion without being declared ‘utterly evil’

          • atheist

            I’m sure very few people would abort if they knew an amazing, loving and prosperous family were waiting for their baby but the facts are that masses of kids are in care and the older they get the harder it is for them to find a home. Miss an opportunity and they’re stuck in a cruddy life were it’s quite hard to make a decent go of it…sad situation unfortunately…:/

  • Lulul’amour

    I wonder how many of you on here have had the trauma of deciding whether or not to have an abortion. I wonder how many of you have stopped to consider the psychological, emotional, spiritual trauma that a woman goes through when this is a decision to be made in her life.
    Abortion is not just about “casual sex”, it is not always about unwanted pregnancies or a form of contraception.
    The problem with what Mr Hunt has said is that it conveys a message that abortion is an easy throw away decision for women. It may be for some, but for most it isn’t. A lot of women don’t always know they’re pregnant immediately so would be rushing to make a massively life-altering decision.
    The issue I have with people who are pro-life is that it always seems to be about preserving the life of the unborn child, when the child is born – where are they then? Are they there to offer emotional, financial support for the parents and the child? No, no – they’re off feeling smug that the job is done, another soul is saved…
    Each woman has a different experience, a different story. Maybe we should treat people as individuals and listen instead of judging so quickly.
    My knee jerk reaction was the same as Lily Allen’s – “No Uterus, No Opinion”. But I know as does she that it’s more complicated than that…

    • luis

      there is no such thing as a potential human being. A being is either human or not…abortion is the killing of innocent human beings…women should be more carefull with the way they face sex yes…whatever they say, abortion is a consequence of their selfish decision, either because they want to keep a certain lifestyle, don’t want someone else to know, etc…there is no excuse to kill an innocent told us loads of time ago that human life starts at the point of conception…all those lies that come afterwards are an insult to my intelligence…the more logic and human thing to do, it to repent from abortion, say sorry to God, He will forgive anyone who really is repentant..i hope is your situation…God is mercy yes, but He does not forgive unless one says sorry, with a contrit heart….I’m not attacking you, I’m just trying to help you with your reasomning…None of us is perfect, we all made mistakes in our lives, but we should be able to recognize them, say sorry, instead of justifying them…like adam and even done…like cain done and so many other throughtout history..the key is repentance…

      • ProChoicer

        What intelligence? Learn to spell and then bring the big guy into this

  • Ian Walker

    The only thing that should be considered is the effect of unwanted pregnancies on society. It is a fact that everywhere that abortion has been legalised, crime has fallen a correspondng 20 years later. And in the one case where legal abortions were re-criminalised (Ceauşescu’s Romania – what delightful company we are seeking to keep) there was a huge boost in the crime rate after the same interval.

    Reducing the time limit for abortion will increase the crime rate from unwanted babies born to incapable mothers in poor families. There will also be many deaths of young women who absoutely will seek out illegal abortions, or try to do it themselves, and disabled babies from the botched attempts.

    That seems a pretty high price to pay, considering that the only upside is that a few self-righteous types get to feel warm and fluffy for a bit.

    • Madame Merle

      Well said, Ian.

      And it is exactly those self-righteous types than whinge about the evil, single mothers sponging off the state.

      It is a decision between the woman and the doctor and nobody else’s damned business.

  • Acuza – Anonymous

    Does anyone want a womb smoothie? Freshly made from an aborted baby. Contact Lily Allen for more information.

    • Acuza – Anonymous

      We Are Legion. We Are Anonymous.

  • Caroline Waddell

    Well written indeed! Another point could possibly be that the aborted babies could have been both boys and girls, that could have been future men and women wanting to partake in this discussion.

  • @joshuwaa

    No uterus; no opinion.

    • Hugh

      I once met a bloke born before 24 weeks. He had quite strong opinions on the abortion limit.

      But he didn’t have a uterus.

  • dollface34

    thanks for mansplaining the abortion debate Freddy Gray.

  • Mere male

    We would all do well to remember that abortion is the murder of a child perhaps some women would be better off murdering the Father instead.

  • Reconstruct

    Well it’s hardly surprising is it: abortion is definitely not great topic for ‘argument’ because it contains the most awful imaginable contradiction. For a lot of people (almost everyone, I imagine), abortion shades perilously close to child-murder – something we’d all plainly regard as intolerable. And yet, and yet, most of us (including me) don’t want to pursue that terrible thought, concluding that this is one where the only option is to turn a blind eye, hope to hell that it is not being embarked on lightly, and if it has to be done, it is being done safely for the woman. Disrupt that tacit, guilty and fretful tolerance and of course, hysteria follows. How could it be otherwise?

  • Kevin

    the subject and its disturbing implications

    Given the centrality of legal abortion as a Democrat policy, why is CH in favour of Obama?

  • Sarah

    Howled? Shouted?

    Do you mean there have been a handful of critical columns in newspapers written by women? Perhaps you’re sensitive to it because you’re used to seeing men writing thousands of pages in thousands of newspapers every day about the things they care about. Yap, yap, yap.

    • Fergus Pickering

      There are a lot of woman journalists voicing their opinions nowadays, not just a few. And by no means all are as pro-abortion as, for instance, I am.

  • Sarah

    “Sometimes it looks to me as if all the twittering has become an excuse not to think too deeply about the subject and its disturbing implications.”

    Well who’d have thought Twitter would turn out to be a place for superficial arguments?

    • prince hairy

      Yeah, it’s getting so there’s no more room on the internet for my proper stylings.

  • muondo

    super un excellent blog!

  • jonah

    The only reason there may be an anomaly in the number of single father/mother households is that state flunkeys have taken it upon themselves to impose divorces on unwilling individuals. It is a huge industry, it gets its leverage from children, and to propagate, needs to reward those who bring it the business. It is an indisputable fact that over 80-90% of divorces are sought by women, often for little more than childish emotional reasons. The industry rewards them for doing so. It is little more than organized crime

  • Daniel Maris

    I agree essentially with this article, speaking as someone who supports legal abortion.

    There has to be some interaction between concepts of life-start, viability and ethics.

    The pro-abortion gang don’t get rid of the arguments by shouting down opponents, they simply demand by assertion what should be won by argument. If abortion at 24 weeks is OK why did that woman who aborted herself at 28 weeks get 8 years’ imprisonment? Why do we suddenly get sentimental as birth approaches?

  • Jez

    300 years ago it was seen an acceptable practice to ship people from one continent to another for slavery.
    As education and maturity of Western cultures grew (ours especially) then the practice was frowned upon, banned and then fought against.
    Maybe 300 years from now, with efficient technologies and a lot better education people could realise that from the spark of life that triggers the forming of a human being in the womb, then that is in fact a person in the making. Thus tantamount to something quite morally wrong if you terminate that prospective childs life in mundane circumstances that is.
    Or maybe not – it’s just an opinion.
    I aren’t as trendy or as right on as the fashionable people that are getting all the air time from our media.
    Nor would I ever stand in the way of a bird who’s just got knocked up wanting to carry on getting totally off her face or p*ssed out of her head, lots of times a week, just because she couldn’t care less about taking care of herself- because it’s up to the bloke is that- nothing to do with her. But it is completely, 100% when she… sorry ‘HE’S’ messed up and got HER pregnant?
    Are we nearly fifty years into this left wing shit- and where the f*ck has it got this place?

    • Daniel Maris

      Jez – So you think if you were informed by some process that a woman known to you had had a spontaneous abortion a few days into pregnancy would you send her a condolence card? If not, why not? And if she was not aware of the fact herself would you inform her? If not why not?

      • prince hairy

        That has to be the stupidest post and set of questions ever posed in the history of the internet.

  • DGStuart

    When did this silly bitch become someone whose opinion was to be sought? I thought she was an ex-pop singer.

    • HooksLaw

      Just watch she will be on question time soon.

      • DGStuart

        I know – it’s too depressing for words.That programme has become a parody of itself.

        • bloughmee

          Her face looks like it belongs on one of those comedy/tragedy masks.

      • outer_limit

        She’s been asked before and has always refused.

    • Mr Bimmler

      Don’t think anyone asked for her opinion. That’s what happens when a tiny mind has a Twitter account. Allen is no thinker, she’s a pop star, and if you heard her lyrics, you’d realise that her stupidity runs deep.

      • outer_limit

        Honestly? Have you not heard the social commentary in her albums? Damn sight better than the vast majority of what passes for pop music these days.

    • gladiolys

      “silly bitch”?

  • dorothy wilson

    The real bigots on this, and a good many other subjects, are those like Ms Allen who take the view that nobody should have an opinion contrary to the one they and their cronies hold.

    And in the case of unwanted pregnancies isn’t it time someone reminded the stringent advocates of abortion that contraception is freely available in this country thus providing the means of preventing the problem arising?

    • Atheist

      I think Lily Allen is so touchy because she had two miscarriages after 6 monthes, however of all people I’m sure she’s well aware of wanting to preserve life…

  • Salisbury

    No need for the “er” in front of bigoted. That is exactly what these people are.

    There is no bigger bigot than a liberal bigot – this is just one of a thousand examples of this being so.

    • WorthSaying

      The liberals have no arguments or reasoning left. They just hurl abuse.

  • alexsandr

    freddy is right to point out the views of the unborn baby. But what about the man who helped create that life. Has he no say?

    I reckon a foetus that could be born alive should not be aborted. So speccy, lets see the stats on how many premature babies are born at each number of days, for the UK and the world.,

  • alexsandr

    freddy is right to point out the views of the unborn baby. But what about the man who helped create that life. Has he no say?

    I reckon a foetus that could be born alive should not be aborted. So speccy, lets see the stats on how many premature babies are born at each number of days, for the UK and the world.,

  • veronica2756

    From the moment of conception is when the life of the Baby in the Womb starts. Why would anyone want to destroy their own Baby, especially in some of the gruesome ways we see in the abortion images. Wake up and dont kill your Baby. Let our Babies live. So many Women regret abortion, but how many women who have their Babies, especially those who change their minds on abortion, do you hear regret this decision.

    • telemachus

      This post is appalling
      We all accept that a viable foetus is a baby
      Until it is viable it is just that a foetus
      Although we now accept 24 weeks there is evidence and examples of foetuses being viable from 22 weeks
      This therefore brings heartache to mothers and medical advisers alike
      I perceive most sensible folk lean to Cameron’s inclination of 20 weeks
      Hunt is totally out of order in his official position stating a view tht cound never hold sway
      Cameron was right to slap him down

      • HooksLaw

        Hunt is not out of order (though this Lily Allen person clearly is), he is entitled to his opinion; Cameron did not slap him down, though it could be argued that Redwood did.
        I do not like the idea of abortion, its not a nice thought, but its been with us since the dawn of time and its not going to go away. I am not going to condemn a woman who has an abortion, but I would like a lower limit, 18 weeks. I think all parties should compromise at 21.

        And on topic, a baby, a foetus, not only has a mother it has a father.

        • alexsandr

          +1 to the last bit about having a father.

          • David Lindsay

            We need a legal presumption of equal parenting. The restoration of the tax allowance for fathers for so long as Child Benefit was being paid to mothers. The restoration of the requirement that providers of fertility
            treatment take account of the child’s need for a father. Repeal of
            the ludicrous provision for two women to be listed as a child’s parents
            on a birth certificate, although even that is excelled by the provision
            for two men to be so listed. And paternity leave available at any time until the child was 18 or left school.

            That last, in particular, would reassert paternal authority, and thus
            require paternal responsibility, at key points in childhood and
            adolescence. That authority and responsibility require an economic basis such as only the State can ever guarantee, and such as only the State can very often deliver. And that basis is high-wage, high-skilled,
            high-status employment. All aspects of public policy must take account
            of this urgent social and cultural need. Not least, that includes energy policy: the energy sources to be preferred by the State are those
            providing the high-wage, high-skilled, high-status jobs that secure the
            economic basis of paternal authority in the family and in the wider
            community. So, nuclear power. And coal, not dole.

            And it includes foreign policy, in no small part because those sent to war tend to come from working-class backgrounds, where starting to have children often still happens earlier than has lately become the norm. Think of those very young men whom we see going off or coming home, hugging and kissing their tiny children. Yet our society urgently needs to re-emphasise the importance of fatherhood. That authority cannot be affirmed while fathers are torn away from their children and harvested in wars. We can believe in fatherhood, or we can support wars under certainly most and possibly all circumstances, the latter especially in practice today even if not necessarily in the past or in principle. We cannot do both. Which is the conservative position?

            • Daniel Maris

              To talk about “equal parenting” is really just more political correctness.

              The existential fact that a mother carries a child in her as part of her body cannot be denied and it is absurd to try and deny it.

              Furthermore, you would have to go a long way before you found a woman who admitted that a man had better child rearing skills than her. And she would be right.

              We have to start with the facts as the basis of our ethics.

              • Fergus Pickering

                The mother carries the child for nine months, not her whole life. In your terms that can be seen as a temporary inconvenience. Being a parent is life-long and both father and mother share it. And many women are bloody awful at rearing their children. These are facts too.

        • alexsandr

          +1 to the last bit about having a father.

      • Fergus Pickering

        I have heard that most European countries are of Hunt’s opinion though, as it happens, I am not. I am more, as it were, pro-abortion than either of my daughters. I think older women among the chattering classes, like Lily Allen, think that ALL women are of their opinion but I think they are not. Younger women.perhaps, are not very interested in feminism either. They have a lot of what they want. Perhaps they should be grateful to their mothers and other women of that age, but, alas, alas, they are not. Times change and we change with them. Unless of course we are old feminists. Or, in another context, old Tories.

        • bloughmee

          …or just dried up old prunes in general, void of any vibrancy of thought.

      • Charles

        Hunt was arguing that life begins at sentience, i.e. at around 12 years. This is the same philosophical position that justifies ‘brain death’ being a key criteria for when life support can be switched off for an adult.

        Personally I prefer viability, but to dismiss the ‘sentience’ position as having no merit is wrong

        • MikeF

          ‘Viability’ is simply the point at which current technology can support continued life in the most basic sense – the ability to breathe – outside the womb. It in no way designates any essential characteristic that can be used to define a human being whose continued existence should be protected. It does not, therefore, constitute any sort of worthwhile principle, though the people who use it as a means of determining a time limit for abortions purport that it does. Their vehemence and intolerance of dissenting opinion in doing so is a direct consequence of the flimsiness of their argument – ultimately they aren’t defending unhappily pregant women but their own perception of themselves as embodiments of logical reasoning. ‘Sentience’ on the other hand does make sense as a determining principle precisely because it ties in with the way that judgements are made are about whether or not to sustain life in other instances.

      • WorthSaying

        The unborn child is viable from the day it is born. It is the act of terminating the pregnancy which ends the life. Left to itself the child will grow until its ready to be born.

        • Daniel Maris

          Nonsense. The foetus cannot be “left to itself”. That is meaningless. The foetus is completely dependent on the woman, the mother, in order to reach independent life.

          Please stop talking nonsense.

          • Fergus Pickering

            So because the foetus is completely dependent the mother has an absolute right to terminate its existence. I mean, since she can.

          • SimonToo

            A new born baby will not last long on its own, either.

          • WorthSaying

            It will keep on being alive until somebody kills it.

        • Turbo Canuck

          I would guess that a baby has a better chance of surviving if “left to itself” before birth than after. But I’m only a guy, so I probably don’t know.

      • Smithers Jones

        You should counsel couples whose lose their babies in the second trimester. I’m sure telling them it was just a foetus and not a real baby yet will give them great comfort!

      • Hugh

        “We all accept that a viable foetus is a baby
        Until it is viable it is just that a foetus”

        We might all accept the first line. Most of the developed world rejects the second. Hunt’s view that could never hold sway holds sway all over Europe.

      • SimonToo

        I doubt that “We all accept that a viable foetus is a baby. Until it is viable it is just that a foetus”. In any event, that view does not address what “just … a foetus” is.

    • Daniel Maris

      “Babies” i.e. bundles of cells are being washed away down the toilet pan by nature all the time. Would you really organise a three hour funeral and invite all your friends and family if you knew you’d lost a baby that way? I doubt it.

      We need to employ a bit of common sense here.

      • WorthSaying

        But this isn’t happening spontaneously as an unavoidable act of nature. It’s a deliberate intervention to end the life of the unborn.

        • Daniel Maris

          That’s irrelevant. You wouldn’t say “My one year old child was killed by lightning so we won’t be holding a funeral for her.” would you?

      • rustyhughes

        The difference in the action taken to dispose of the ‘cells’ is what raises the moral and ethical question – unfertilised cells will not grow into a baby if left to develop naturally and as such can be disposed of without fear of reproach. A fertilised egg will naturally develop into a human child if it is not interfered with. A deliberate action is being take to prevent the life of another without that entity’s input.

        In short, I disagree with your generalisation.

    • Kundah

      Most women would not admit verbally that they regret having a child, but many show it in their actions.

  • wrinkledweasel

    Women are becoming increasingly shrill..about everything really. And now, you cannot so much as look at one without an accusation of “abuse”. So much or equality: men shrug things off and get on with it. I was groped on more than one occasion by the headmaster at my prep school. I am neither traumatised nor about to desecrate his grave. He was an old perv, end of story.

    So really, this hysteria about “wimmin” is more about positioning at the top of the pyramid of political correctness or maybe revenge, but it is not about justice, or personal responsibility or indeed “rights”.

    • Mirtha Tidville

      Anyway who the hell is this Lily Allen never heard of it…… she/he a bit like Lilly Savage ????

      • wrinkledweasel

        A lot like Lily Savage, but without a willy.

        • telemachus

          Not sure Lily Savage has one

          • Ostrich (occasionally)

            You said something almost funny!!!!!

      • Fergus Pickering

        Lily Allen is a singer among other things. Her views on abortion are worthless but her songs are quite good. Look up ‘Fuck you’ on the internet. Cheerful and foot-tapping in my opinion.

        • Ostrich (occasionally)

          Is she your muse?

        • Andy Car Park

          No doubt as much of a lyrical virtuoso as yourself, Ferg, me old nodding donkey.

    • Sarah

      Eddie, whining like a man.

    • Fergus Pickering

      Perhaps you protest too much. Being groped by your headmaster repeatedly sounds pretty bad to me. If I were your father I wouldn’t dismiss it so lightly. He should have gone to jail, don’t you think? After all, there would have been other boys perhaps less able than you to shrug it off.

      • wrinkledweasel

        Fergus, this has gone way off topic and it’s my fault, but I know that I was not the only object of my old headmaster’s attention. God only knows what he got up to with the boarders. My point is simple. I was not traumatised. I left that school and went to one where I was repeatedly bullied and beaten up, so badly I had to leave that one. Which experience do you think had the biggest impact on me?

        Perhaps I will write about it all on my blog one day, but at the moment, nobody would listen. People who shout the loudest appear to have the upper hand in the abortion debate: “It’s my right to have casual sex and then to abort a perfectly viable human being”. And when it comes to abuse, I wonder how the doctors and nurses feel about dealing with the results?

        • Fergus Pickering

          Dear me, you seem to have had bad experiences at school. I commiserate, I really do. Schools are pretty horrible places, but ones where you can go home in the evenings are preferable. I would NEVER send my children away. And I trust neither would you. And I don’t apologise for being off topic. What you brought up is interesting and this abortion debate is getting very boring..

  • David Lindsay

    Like Maria Miller before him, Jeremy Hunt has said nothing more than that he himself would vote for a backbench amendment lowering the abortion time limit, though not under the catch-all “special circumstances” for which Margaret Thatcher legalised it up to birth. There is no story here. Would that there were. But there isn’t.

    Speaking of Thatcher, the 12-week time limits on abortion elsewhere in Western Europe (where there is not an outright ban, as there was in Great Britain for the first generation of our own National Health Service, and as there almost still is alongside the NHS in Northern Ireland) are due to the consensus between, upon and around Christian Democracy and Social Democracy, once the twin pillars of One Nation Toryism, and now once again, as historically, the twin pillars of One Nation Labour.

    What is essentially that consensus can still be said to unite the four or five major parties in Northern Ireland when it comes down to practical, day-to-day policy-making. Whereas post-Thatcher and post-Blair Britain is like the United States since the dismantlement of the New Deal: dependent on abortion, among other evils, for the maintenance of the underlying and overarching evil that is our economic system.

    A system the superiority, or even the self-evidence, of which was disputed by no major party between the death of the staunchly pro-life John Smith and the election of Ed Miliband, who is no pro-lifer himself, but who is no sectarian enemy of such strands of Labourism, either. His relationship with, among others, his party’s social conservatives is very much as Smith’s relationship was with his party’s economic Left and with its Eurosceptics, to neither of which he belonged, but neither of which he sought to alienate or exclude.

    Listen to the silence from the Shadow Health Secretary, Andy Burnham, practising
    Catholic, Hero of Hillsborough, working-class boy made good, and Yvette Cooper’s potential nemesis in any future Leadership Election that they might still be young enough to contest.

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