Coffee House

Alex Salmond branded ‘liar’ over legal advice row as two MSPs resign

23 October 2012

It  has been a disastrous day for the Scottish National Party. Its majority at Holyrood has been cut to just one this morning after two MSPs – Jean Urquhart and John Finnie – quit the party in protest at its decision at its conference in Perth this weekend to end its opposition to Nato.

Then Nicola Sturgeon gave a statement to the Scottish Parliament which led to her boss being branded a ‘liar’ by Labour as she admitted that the Scottish government has not yet sought legal advice on whether an independent Scotland would continue to be a member of the European Union. She said:

‘The Scottish government has previously cited opinions from a number of eminent legal authorities, past and present, in support of its view than an independent Scotland will continue in membership of the European Union but has not sought specific legal advice. However, as the Edinburgh agreement provides the exact context of the process of obtaining independence, we now have the basis on which specific legal advice can be sought.’


This directly contradicts what Salmond told Andrew Neil on the Sunday Politics in March:-

Andrew Neil: Have you sought advice from your own Scottish law officers in this matter?
Alex Salmond: We have, yes, in terms of the debate.
Neil: And what do they say?
Salmond: You can read that in the documents that we’ve put forward, which argue the position that we’d be successor states.
Neil: And what do they say?
Salmond: You know I can’t give you the legal advice, or reveal the legal advice of law officers, you know that, Andrew.

Labour MSP Paul Martin seized on the statement to brand Salmond a ‘liar’, saying:

‘It appears the First Minister is a liar and used taxpayers’ money to try to cover up his lies. When asked about whether he had sought legal advice on Scotland joining the EU, he said he had. He even went to court to prevent that advice from being published and he told the Scottish Parliament that he couldn’t reveal it because the rules wouldn’t let him. Now Nicola Sturgeon has confirmed that Alex Salmond never had any advice to keep secret in the first place. That means the Deputy First Minister has revealed the First Minister to be a liar.’

Jonathan blogged last week that Scots are going off the idea of independence, and that the SNP now has a real challenge on its hands to persuade them to vote yes in 2014’s referendum. Today’s resignations and revelations won’t help the party get on with that task.

More Spectator for less. Subscribe and receive 12 issues delivered for just £12, with full web and app access. Join us now.

  • dercavalier

    The Right wing fascist London press have really stepped up their anti-Scottish rhetoric during these last few days. Unfortunately for them their opinions are worthless and wasted because no-one in Scotland reads their mewling dribbles. I only come here to rubbish their articles and to put the boot into the usual English morons who crawl out of the walls to comment on anti-Scottish articles.

    • Expatriate Scot

      Clearly a Scot who does not understand the real meaning of the word ‘fascist’ is seriously lacking intellectually and educationally. If the UK had a fascist press, presumably reflecting the opinions of a fascist people, do you really think independence would be on the agenda? Secessionist traitors would be inside prison camps. The collapse of circulation of both The Scotsman and the Herald Scotland means that English-based newspapers are taking up the slack north of the border, so your assertion that no-one reads them is patently untrue.

      Your problem is that through your childish comments about ‘usual English morons’ you simply convince a wider world (not just the English) that Scots Nats are all stupid, ignorant and vile people. You certainly seem determined to prove that point. Articles published south of the border generally are not anti-Scottish, they are anti-Scottish Nationalist, and with good reason given your vomit-inducing comments.

      • dercavalier

        What a load pf bunkum. “… Clearly a Scot who does not understand the real meaning of the word
        ‘fascist’ is seriously lacking intellectually and educationally….” Well you’re not much good when you obviously don’t know how to construct an English sentence. And using ‘big’ words doesn’t make you clever merely boring. Do you actually know the meaning of most of them?
        “Secessionist traitors”? Is that how you describe your ‘fellow’ Scots who only want to be Independent from England? I thought we lived in a democracy?
        “English-based newspapers are taking up the slack north of the border”, not true because nobody reads them up here. Maybe you are an expat in Fairyland where all your dreams come true? And I do mean Fairyland in the conceptual definition, as well as the factual definition which describes England’s homosexual culture. Are you … one of them? Not that there’s anything wrong with that!
        “… Articles published south of the border generally are not anti-Scottish …”. Are you for real? Four or five of the commenters on this site have written anti-Scottish rants, eg, tory OAP, and I have just come over from the Telegraph where I was totally disgusted with the literally 100s of racist comments made about Scots in an article published yesterday.
        You are a typical Unionist cringer who hasn’t got the brains to see that when they make racist comments about the Scots YOU ARE INCLUDED.

        • Expatriate Scot

          I would keep taking the pills and ask your doctor about other forms of help that may be available. You will be obviously be very bereft after the forthcoming failure to achieve independence. Incidentally the remarks made about Scots in the comment columns of various websites are not generally reflected in the comments or policies of the newspapers themselves. I am afraid that in large part they are caused by the activities of inadequate trolls like yourself. The moronic comments of ideologue Scot Nat fanatics have hacked off a lot of people who previously were not in the least anti-Scottish. I feel deeply ashamed that any true Scot could be so mentally warped.

          Remember: A patriot is someone who loves his country. A nationalist is someone who hates other people’s countries. I think we know the camp to which you belong. How does it feel to spend your time so hate filled? Go and see the doctor as soon as you can.
          PS. I have worked with genuine South African fascists, one of whom served with the SS on the Eastern Front and took pleasure in regaling us with his murderous wartime experiences. You clearly do not have the slightest idea what a fascist is when you so freely accuse the London press of being such. Invincible ignorance I suspect.

          • Stuart Eels

            Thank you for your comments Expatriate Scot, I was going to correct the sad waste of time but feel you have said all I would have bothered to.
            If Scotland choses to follow the route of “independence” the truly sane Scots know we won’t declare war on them but would hope to carry on trading and socialising with Scotland despite the presence of a few brainless individuals like decavalier on both sides of the border.

          • dercavalier

            Expat Jock
            If anyone is mentally warped it is you; worked with genuine South African fascists indeed. I suppose that was when you were living as one of your other personalities in your private Fairyland. You make me ashamed of being Scots because no other race on earth contains members like you who constantly denigrate their homeland. For all their faults you don’t get Englanders belittling England.
            And to come out with “… Incidentally the remarks made about Scots in the comment columns of
            various websites are not generally reflected in the comments or policies
            of the newspapers themselves… “Eh?! You clearly don’t read Cochrane of the Telegraph who produces daily ad hominem attacks in articles against Alex Salmond and other SNP leaders. But then he’s an expat, a cringer, who is willing to take English Gold to malign Scots and Scotland; probably like you.

            And Stuart Eels
            One of your English bestest friends below has just produced a nasty comment attacking me in intemperate language viz, “…I was going to correct the sad waste of time …”. Plus some ridiculous trolling statements about Independence. But I suppose what he writes is OK because he is English and anti-Independence?

            • Expatriate Scot

              Oh dear, you poor sad man. Don’t worry, psychiatry is making great strides and I am sure there is hope. You obviously have no idea how your rantings come across – you have certainly caused great amusement to my medical colleagues. Let me just remind you that we are not living in 1715 or 1745, let alone the Fairyland that seems to obsess you.

              My own experience of the English is that they constantly denigrate their own country. But I find the English in practice are not really anti-Scots either, notwithstanding the attempts of trolls like you who do their best to wind them up to get the reaction you want. I repeat, British papers are not anti-Scots, although many on;line commentators will express anti-SNP and anti-Salmond views – and why not given the abuse they get?
              You seem to believe that anyone who is not an SNP supporter advocating independence is somehow anti-Scots and unpatriotic. That is clearly an SNP propaganda line, but is of course quite untrue. I love my country, but I see no advantage and a lot of disadvantages in leaving the Union. It is a shame you are not prepared to impartially analyse the issues surrounding independence, instead of making sweeping assumptions about some fantastic future. It won’t be. All you will see is people becoming Scotland’s greatest export, just like Ireland. You really must be away with the faeries man.

              Incidentally I have actually worked abroad with a former member of the SS. Helmut was not a nice man, but he would certainly have known how to deal with people like you.

              • dercavalier

                My, my, my, I am now feeling sorry for you. Your delusions have overtaken your reality. The nearest you will ever come “to your medical colleagues” is when you are undergoing an examination prior to ECT or some other treatment for paranoia and delusions. And if Englanders are reacting to what Scots say about them don’t you think that Scots are reacting to what is written about them in the English media, remembering that the latter started the insults? And I see you are still persisting with your Nazi fantasy and even threatening me … with what? 10 years in one of your imaginary concentration camps?
                You are so stupid that you do not realise that you have been hurling trolling insults at me over the last few hours. Or, are your insults THE TRUTH … as all paranoid schizophrenics believe? You’ll be telling me next that Dumb Dave is the Messiah and Fat Ozzie his disciple.

                • Expatriate Scot

                  Well, let’s feel sorry for each other then. I cannot help being a (non-Tory) realist, just as you cannot help being an SNP fantasist. But how will you cope when the SNP loses the vote on independence, as it inevitably will, and you find yourself stuck inside the Union for another 50 years or so? Sleep well – you may feel better in the morning.

                • Stuart Eels

                  My dear decavalier, by your assumed moniker on these pages, you obviously see yourself as some Knight in shining armour lately come to rescue the Scottish people from those terrible English oppressors and can’t understand that most Scots like most English worry that maybe you have escaped from somewhere secure.

                • dercavalier

                  Go away you fool! You are an insect with whom I don’t feel the need to engage. Expat Scot had at least some intellect to joust with. You…….

                • Stuart Eels

                  I actually tell the truth, unlike you who just spouts lazy, racialist accusations about my country whilst you are probably leaching off the State, probably reading this hung over through red rimmed eyes, shouting your isane drivel about us stumbling over the reply and thinking that Alex Salmond will give you even more funds to waste after he achieves independence. He won’t get any help from a saddo like you and he won’t give you anymore than you are getting now.
                  Your own countrymen are ashamed of you and probably represent about 0.00.1% of Scottish views.
                  When you can actually come with any real facts to back up your rants feel free to come back with a reply or just curl up in an alcoholic ball and do us all a favour!

                • dercavalier

                  All of the crap you have just written is made up. You don’t know who I am or what I do. And yet you claim to tell the truth. You wouldn’t know the truth if it came up and bit your sorry ass. And you are still an insect.

                • Stuart Eels

                  Any sane person would know that I meant everything I said about you because I believe that only someone, who spouts such rubbish is an escapee from a Mental Establishment or an out and out alcoholic.
                  Tomorrow, just you wait and see, I will wake up sober and sane and you will well hopefully be apprehended or sober. I don’t hold out much hope for you either way.
                  If you are capable of making a case using properly sourced material for the statements you have made earlier in this thread quote the sources or shut up you creep.

                • terregles2

                  Even if there is a NO vote in 2014 the Independence issue will not disappear. People will continue to campaign for Independence.
                  Personally I have noticed a slow change over the last few months and more people now seem to be tired of all the negative lies and scaremongering of the press. My English neighbours are out campaigning hard for a YES vote. They settled here five years ago and would prefer a government based in Edinburgh.
                  I think it is sad that some people try to turn it into an anti English issue. It is anti English government not anti English people.
                  SNP are campaigning for YES but so are three other Scottish parties. Every country in the world governs itself there is no reason why Scotland cannot join them.

      • terregles2

        The only word I would use for the British press is dishonest, Latest example in the Daily Mail they wrote a viscious hysterical article denigrating the SNP over immigration. The fact that the SNP have no control over immigration policy was ignored. All immigration decisions are controlled by the British Home Office UKBA in London.
        They are daily printing hysterical scare stories which are a tissue of lies.Even the BBC has admitted it is not impartial over the Independence issue. We know that the BritNatz are worried that they lose all the revenue from Scotland’s rich resources and will stop at nothing to prevent independence.
        There are now four different political parties campaigning in Scotland for Independence. The latest one is a faction of the Labour party Labourforindy they are gaining in popularity daily.
        There are many English people living in Scotland who intend to vote YES in 2014 to try and turn it into a nationality issue is misleading. Many living in Scotland ignore the biased London press and read NewsnetScotland instead.
        They also read The Great Obfuscation-GERS-2006.
        Lots of people who would never vote SNP are still voting for some of the other three parties who are campaigning for a YES vote. It is very misleading for the London media to try and present Independence as an SNP issue only.

  • Maidmarrion

    Labour MP Paul Martin is ,I believe ,the son of one Michael Martin ,erstwhile Speaker of Westminster known in the media as Gorbals Mick and now happily ensconced with the other ermine clad ex MPs in the House of Lords.

  • sunnydayrider

    That’s absolutley typical! “The Scots are going off the idea of independance?” They’ll do anything to upet the English

  • Whyshouldihavetoregister

    Popcorn time.

  • Salisbury

    Time to start counting the number of politicians who begin to say “you know I was never one of those who thought that Alex Salmond was a political genius who could walk on water in the first place”


    You can sum this up in a few words (FAT USELESS WANK)

    • terregles2

      What a boorish uncouth remark. Think you should stick to writing you thoughts on a toilet wall.

  • Scottish Warlord

    When Scotland is free, England will be forced by the rest of the international community to disengage the whole of its nuclear weapons systems and lose its seat on the security council UN. The stakes are high and we should expect the British establishment to play dirty. The British Labour Party in Scotland are the enemy of all Scottish people. Brits out now!.

    • CraigStrachan

      Wracking my brains to think of a context in which your comments might have the slightest connection to any real body of opinion, I can only suggest you take a ferry to Larne and a time machine to 1982.

  • Rebus

    There best chance of Scottish independence is to give the English a vote

  • Peter A Bell

    At the very worst Salmond may have misspoken due to a momentary misunderstanding. But how can a TV interview outweigh all the other statements in public and in parliament?

    Why, after all those other statements, would Salmond suddenly confide in somebody like Andrew Neil?

    And if Andrew Neil genuinely thought Salmond had made the admission claimed, why did he not pursue the point?

    The accusations of deliberate dishonesty simply make no sense. But I personally would be delighted if Paul Martin or some other lackwit took it into their empty head to demand yet another inquiry. To coin a phrase, “Bring it on!”

    • John_Page

      Watch the interview (above). No ambiguity I can see. Maybe the elephant trap was less obvious back then, in March.

      • Peter A Bell

        Try to escape from you prejudices long enough to apply a bit of logic. How could Salmond have been referring to non-existent unpublished advice? He could only be referring to advice that was already in the public domain. Now! If he had said, “No, we haven’t.”, that would have been a slip-up. Because that would have revealed that there was no unpublished advice. And, incidentally, breached the Ministerial Code.

        Too much eagerness to find a stick with which to beat the SNP and not enough clear thinking.

  • MichtyMe

    If the opposition MSP’s are truly interested in legal advice re the EU then perhaps they should speak with their colleagues in the House of Commons Scottish Affairs Committee, where a few weeks ago they received such advice from expert witnesses, an Edinburgh legal academic and a representative from the Law commission. Their belief was that, upon dissolution, both successor states would be equal and both remain within the EU.

    • Expatriate Scot

      Actually you might do better looking at the advice given by constitutional experts to the Foreign Affairs Committee. Most of them, apart from the obviously self-serving nationalist, took the view that Scotland effectively would have seceded from the Union. The Rest of the UK would assume all the rights of the present UK, but Scotland would be forced to apply from scratch for membership of the EU, UN, NATO and the myriad of other international organisations, having, one assumes created a diplomatic service out of nothing.

      The overwhelming opinion was that Scotland would be treated as a ‘new’ state and would not be able to automatically assume the rights and obligations of the UK. This is of course exactly what happened to ireland after 1922, albeit in a much less complex world. So, for example, there is no question of the UK dividing embassy property with what would become a foreign country. It was also pointed out that Scotland would become an economic competitor and it might not necessarily be in the UK’s interests to be particularly helpful, especially given the costs of redeploying Trident to Devonport. So it is certainly uncertain that Scotland could expect a share of currency and gold reserves or any other UK property – it is the equivalent of a petulant child walking out of the family home. I think the SNP ought to have the courage to put the facts to those living in Scotland, but given the fundamental dishonesty of the Nats dream I doubt they could ever bring themselves to do so.

      • MichtyMe

        Well, if what were correct then Scotland would not inherit any part of the UK’s gargantuan national debt. Lucky old Scotland free, and debt free.

        • Expatriate Scot

          But of course one could reasonably expect Scotland to take full responsibility for the huge loans given by London to bail out its creaking banks. I cannot see London being willing to underpin future Scots debt after independence during the 5 year period it continues using the pound (while awaiting to adopt the Euro as one of the conditions of EU entry). This will make future borrowing on the international markets very expensive, if not impossible. Frankly I don’t really see the Edinburgh financial markets surviving for long. Most of the remaining companies will relocate out of a high spending, tax-guzzling, extreme left-wing Scotland as dreamt of by the Stupid Nationalist Party. And we will be stuffed if the Orkneys and Shetlands decide to remain part of the UK.

          I am as patriotic as the next Scot, but I am appalled at the immature rubbish spouted by the SNP and its whinging cyber-trolls, which seems to be a strange mixture of yearning for the imagined liberalism and socialism of pre-1707 Scotland, and picking at the imaginary giant chip on the shoulder which expresses itself in vile anti-English sentiment. When Scotland already controls its domestic affairs why would anyone in their rational senses think that Scotland will have more clout in the world as a very small independent player than as part of a highly successful union? All we will end up with is the kind of troglodyte backwater that Ireland became between 1922 and the 1990s, especially once the oil starts to run out in the 2020s. MichtyPrat ought to crawl back to his cave and learn how to engage brain before his mother switches on the computer for him.

          • terregles2

            Scotland would not have more clout in the world but why should it want clout. Having clout is often the cause of many world problems. To present Independence as only an SNP wish is extremely misleading. There are now more than four political parties in Scotland campaigning for a YES vote and indeed many English people living in Scotland are also in favour of a YES. There is even now a large faction of the Scottish Labour party campaigning for Labourforindy.
            If Scotland had been independent we would never have been involved in the illegal Iraq invasion or the war in Afghanistan. Who knows what other wars we might be dragged into in the future. If we had been independent we would never have had to endure the long weary Thatcher destruction of our country.
            People voting for independence are in no way anti English people just anti English government. Scotland is the only country in the world who discovered oil and became poorer. We would like to use our resources to build a more fair and equal Scotland.

  • FranzFerdinand

    Shambles all round

    Just so you know the Trump development was highly popular locally almost everybody wanting it to go ahead…..’You’ve been Trumped’ seemingly managed to film and interview almost everybody opposed…..yet found almost no time for the overwhelming majority view….nor the fact mention that it had cross party support

    As a polemic I suppose it worked as it certainly made Trump look a complete archie (kinda the point) and Grampian Polis came out of it particularily badly….but as a balance piece of reportage it was as balanced as say Polly Toynbee on IDS.

    In other exciting related Planning news from North East Scotland….Labour have overturned the result of a public referendum on the future of Union Terrace Gardens….the SNP have many faults but on Trump they were at least doing what the majority of voters wanted done…..Labour has no such defence

  • Hexhamgeezer

    Of course if it was real independence they wouldnt be getting a referendum.
    They are getting a vote on positioning of the deckchairs. Like what we get.

  • Shambles all round

    Ive just watched “You’ve been trumped” and I am appalled at the SNP overule of Aberdeen council with regards to opposition of the Trump Golf Project. This is not a democracy, the SNP have failed the local community and acted in a biased manner by favouring money and prestige over local goverment constituency and more importantly residents. The programme clearly illustrates how manipulated the party are, by being blindsidedly fooled with regards to jobs and environmental benefits for local residents. If you thought SNP were going to be better and do better for Scotland, as I did, think again!

    • MichtyMe

      I did not favour the Trump project. However, Aberdeenshire Council, not Aberdeen, that’s a different authority, were for it, with all party support, although It was initially rejected by a subcommittee. Trump was introduced to Scotland by Jack McConnell, the prior, Labour First Minister. A planning public enquiry was held and recommended approval, this was subsequently accepted by the responsible Minister.

  • FranzFerdinand

    Worth pointing out that both MSP’s who’ve resigned have said they will continue to support the SNP Govt….in fact the only scenario in which they would vote against would presumably be if Holyrood voted on NATO membership…..

    Which of course it can’t…..and even in the hypothetical where Holyrood could decide on NATO membership…..given that The SNP is now in line with all the other parties it would mean the vote would be a seat of the pants 122-6…assuming all 4 Indies and both Green vote against.

    So any celebration of the imminent collapse of the SNP majority a perhaps a tad premature.

    On the ‘liar’ thing…Salmonds reply neatly side steps it ‘yes, in terms of the debate’… advice on ‘the debate’ can cover almost anything… the Scottish Govt already has advice from Brussells which states it is a matter for the individual states to decide and it’s won’t comment on hypotheticals….the Edinburgh Agreement means it’s no longer a hypothetical…hence it is appropriate NOW to ask for the advice…..that’s how he’ll get off the hook…..

    Given the current Saville obsession, this was the perfect time for the SNP to bury bad news and thus no one beyond Political obsessives will care or notice….

    So I very much doubt many voters in the referendum will remember or for that matter care whether Salmond was economical with the truth on legal advice….in fact his cunning and all round sleekitness with his opponent is one of the traits that make him so popular up here….also see G Galloway, T Sheridan, J Murphy, D Alexander and many many more ….all slippery b*stards to a man yet all immensly and incredibly popular with their voters because of it.

  • Mirtha Tidville

    Wasnt it Churchill who described Nationalism as the last refuge of a scoundrel…………seems he was right

    • ToryOAP

      Samuel Johnson said it and it was Patriotism but the scoundrel is certainly Salmond.

      • Hexhamgeezer

        I think its Europhilia these days…..

    • MichtyMe

      One of these folk who wish the end of nations and their sovereignty, all power to Brussels perhaps or elsewhere?

    • Wessex Man

      Heres one for you to ponder which Churchill actually said and I hold dear.
      “Theres is a forgotton, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is ENGLAND.”
      same with me, have your vote and go away.

  • ToryOAP

    The sad part of this is the liar Salmond could badly screw up the independence vote and I for one can’t wait to see the back of the whinging, fat-arsed, socialist welfare-addicted scotch.

    • telemachus

      My experience of the Scots is that they are intelligent go getting folk who immeasurably improve the ambienc of these islands.
      You are correct that Salmond has aggravated the dependency minded culture of the lowland towns.
      The solution for me is to ditch Salmond and with yesterdays resignations this prospect looms.

      • telemachus

        Remember such giants as Keir Hardie and Gordon Brown were Scots

        • Stuart Eels

          So the Scots are to blame for that as Well!

          • telemachus

            Or praised

            • Robert Castlereagh

              Under the Scotland
              Act (1998) all constitutional issues relating to the 1707 Treaty of Union
              between England and Scotland are reserved to Westminster.

              So why has he given this away?

              Salmond not only has the moral advantage but will hold
              the referendum at the time of his choosing in autumn 2014

              Further the political situation is simply reducible to
              SNP support for independence and Tory support for the status quo.

              In fact, the
              majority of the leadership of both parties would find the third option, “devo
              max”, preferable, although for different reasons neither can publicly admit it.

              Devo max is the
              option overwhelmingly supported by most Scots: it would leave the Scottish
              Parliament in control of all state functions (including taxation) with the
              exception of those controlled by the Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence
              and the Bank of England (ie in relation to setting interest rates).

              Most of the SNP
              leadership recognise that there is not a majority for independence, or at least
              not one that would currently make the transition from opinion poll to voting
              booth. Devo max is what they hope to achieve—and more importantly, what they
              think they can
              achieve—in the short to medium term.

              So why did Cameron remove this from consideration.

              Cameron certainly
              wants to win a vote against independence but, tactically inept though he is, he
              is also aware that even if this is achieved, the demand for further devolution
              will be unstoppable, and would probably result in pressure for a subsequent
              referendum asking Scottish voters to choose between the status quo and devo max

              If the essential integrity of the British state were
              maintained at the military-diplomatic level, the latter would be an acceptable
              outcome, particularly since it would place the responsibility for raising
              taxation and cutting expenditure on the Scottish government

              Tim Montgomerie argues that Cameron should seize the
              opportunity to reconstruct the British constitution on a federal basis—a
              position which would bring the Tories into harmony with the Liberal Democrats,
              for whom this is a policy dating back to the days of the original Liberal

              The truth is that Scottish secession threatens Cameron’s
              perception of Britain as an imperialist state and he can stomach neither
              independence or D-Max. Sadly he has sold out and will get first one by default
              and the other 10 years on

              • telemachus

                In truth Cameron and Salmond are playing the same game
                They are playing at an independence vote while all the while promoting D max in private

        • kyalami

          That’s as good a reason as any for splitting Scotland off from the civilised world.

        • Bob Hutton

          Keir Hardie once summed the correct attitude to war when he said “All wars are capitalist wars fought to make the rich richer”. Most conscientious objecters objected on religious grounds, as I would have done, but a significant number objected on political grounds and I can well understand why.

      • MichtyMe

        It would be interesting to have an explanation of how a proposer of independence could be aggravating dependency.

        • dorothy wilson

          Because he thinks he can put up taxes without any restraint.

    • Whyshouldihavetoregister

      I’m a Tory OAP as well, but I live in Scotland. You are an ignorant tosser. Mind you, I could lose a little weight in the gluteal region.

      • ToryOAP

        I have few pleasures in life, one of which is taunting the easilly baited Scotch. Thanks fir biting.

        • Maidmarrion

          Pity you are not intelligent enough to either spell or make comments worthy of an adult.

          • ToryOAP

            Another bite. Excellent.

    • Maidmarrion

      Who the hell are you to bad mouth the First Minister of Scotland in such ridiculous playground terms.
      He will never have the chance to call you liar and neither will the ” whingeing ,fat arsed ,socialist welfare- addicted scotch”
      If I ever hoped for some sane and sensible debate ,it sure as hell is not going to be with folk like you or indeed on the boards of this once fair minded publication.

      • ToryOAP

        Err, who am I to bad mouth the lying, terrorist releasing, Lord Snooty hating, parasite Salmon; a taxpayer who is supporting the lazy scotch perhaps? And if you hate us so much why take the name of an English heroine? Begone back to your heathen boglands in the north wench.

        • Maidmarrion

          I hate no-one ,certainly not my English family – your comments are inane ,puerile and lack intelligence or even a flicker of articulate thought process.
          If you were aiming at humour ,you missed.
          The First Minister is Alex SalmonD – note the “D”

          • ToryOAP

            Too easy love. Making my day. Big smile lol.

    • dercavalier

      And I can’t wait to be rid of the english millstone round our necks. Sitting there like bloated fat bloodsuckers sucking all the wealth out of Scotland and always whinging and moaning. Subsidy junkies in the sink estates in the north of England and in the banks in the south. What a shower of deadbeats. England a land of paedophiles and poufs led by Fat Dumb Dave the master shambler and his thick assistant, fatter and dumber Ozzie who is a typical English cheapskate; rolling in money yet travels 1st class on a 2nd class ticket when he isn’t caught, and claims 1st class expenses. What a disorganised madhouse is England? A third rate country with 4th rate leaders … and they gained 1st class honours at Oxford! me! Are they buying them?

    • dercavalier

      dercavalier • 16 minutes ago • parent

      I can’t wait to be rid of the english millstone round our necks.
      Sitting there like bloated fat bloodsuckers sucking all the wealth out
      of Scotland and always whinging and moaning. Subsidy junkies in the sink
      estates in the north of England and in the banks in the south. What a
      shower of deadbeats. England a land of paedophiles and poufs led by Fat
      Dumb Dave the master shambler and his thick assistant, fatter and dumber
      Ozzie who is a typical English cheapskate; rolling in money yet travels
      1st class on a 2nd class ticket when he isn’t caught, and claims 1st
      class expenses. What a disorganised madhouse is England? A third rate
      country with 4th rate leaders … and they gained 1st class honours at
      Oxford! me! Are they buying them?

  • tomdaylight

    Another defection and surely the prospect of even holding a referendum is put in doubt?

  • HooksLaw

    No matter what the result, by 2014 Salmond will have done very nicely thank you out of parading the fiction of Scottish independence.

    • telemachus

      Forget the lies(do not all politicians lie)
      He’s actually beginning to look tired
      The shine has gone.
      Darling was a master stroke for the other side.
      Dull and sure

  • Hexhamgeezer

    OmniSalmbles shurely?

    • telemachus

      sHurely so
      Not sure that this is a legal question
      sHurely it is political on behalf of the 27
      And if various posters have opined Spain are not for budging on this given the increasing clamouring from Catalonia

Can't find your Web ID? Click here